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Author Topic: Raid casualty comes forward to tell his story  (Read 2168 times)

ekruob

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Raid casualty comes forward to tell his story
« Reply #225 on: August 06, 2007, 06:10:00 PM »

QUOTE(twinsrock @ Aug 7 2007, 06:14 AM) *
They should have been more strict about this in the first place so that people knew what they were getting into.  If you talked to these 32 individuals, I bet the majority thought that by just installing a chip and not flashing it then it was legal.



Yes, this blunt sledgehammer-style action sounds very draconian indeed...


BTW in Australia two things usually happen before something like this would even be considered:

1. For small-time ops, Sony (or whoever) usually pay a personal visit to the modder and issue them with a stern warning letter demanding that they cease operations or else they will be back with a warrant (along with a talk to them face-to-face).  That at least seems slightly 'nicer' and fairer than a no-warning 4am raid.

It is obvious these raids were purely a media stunt.


2. The government has been forced into spending large amounts of money on advertising campaigns to ensure that the public is well-aware (or can be reasonably expected to be well aware) of exactly what is now illegal.  From the sounds of things this has not been done in the US - and this may be a valid argument in court.

'If it is such a heinous crime - then why wasn't the public properly educated about it?'

Copyright (especially para-Copyright) law is not like other property law in that you cannot physically see the boundaries.  In property law you can be reasonably expected to know when you are in the wrong - e.g. by breaking into property, by stealing a physical item, or by destroying someone else's property.  These are all things that one can appreciate as being morally wrong.  However unless you educate the public on the DMCA then no-one can honestly be expected to study it themselves.  Here there is no fence to cross, no doors to break into, and no tangible chattel to steal - hence there cannot be expected for the general public to have an innate knowledge of where these invisible legal boundaries lie.  This argument will hold up in court, and at least improve your chances of a lighter sentence if you can show that the government has not educated you on these new and intangible laws.

Or does the government over there count incarceration of innocents and the parading of them in the associated media coverage as the 'education' part?!

This post has been edited by ekruob: Aug 7 2007, 01:29 AM
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FallsInc

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Raid casualty comes forward to tell his story
« Reply #226 on: August 06, 2007, 07:41:00 PM »

small update.

my gf's mom cooled off, and now i can go back over there...

an ICE agent called me to say that can get some of my stuff back. (didn't say what it was, i'd imagine they are still looking at hard drives) smile.gif

and just a note: they didn't really bust down the door or anything, they just woke everyone up really early expecting to surprise me i guess...

thanks to everyone that sent in a donation. every little bit helps. laugh.gif
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jxl98c

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« Reply #227 on: August 07, 2007, 01:27:00 AM »

Hi all,

This is a tricky one to comment on really.  I'm not happy about seeing anyones life disrupted to this extent but it is clear that some things have gone on that aren't quite legit. but on the other hand I think some of what has happened is horseshit!

For me, the main driver for modding would be to run homebrew software.  Now with XNA enabling the end user to write commercial quality games I have no reason to mod. and my 360 is as the day it was made (or returned from the warranty department as the case may be). If I want to faff around with hardware then I'd buy a PC and go down that route - on the other hand, I can see that there probably would not have been an issue if the mods being sold were to enable tilt control on a 360 controller?

To modify your own 360 for education is one thing, but to do this as a main income (presumably without declaring any taxes, etc.) is not quite the same.  In the UK I think the tax office would be more bugged by this than anyone trying to claim copyright infringement.  I guess the problem comes down to whether you were making the odd buck or had a $30,000 income from it and the state has missed out on a lot of taxes.  This point is moot however if they try to do you for copyright issues, hopefully it is being used to gather information rather that prosecute you.

The trouble is, is that the general opinion of the non-modders is that modding is used mainly for playing pirated software, whether correct or not, we (or I) don't really have a good example of what you can do with a modded 360 that is legit. and really adds value to my system.

I'm sure that if every UK law was interpreted and my home investigated then I'd be writing a similar e-mail feeling hard done by about something, but I think realistically you have to put this down to bad luck and experience.  I feel for you, and your family, and if it was me I'd be gutted also.  As you said, you cooperated with the authorities and that should count for a lot.  You could have quite easily have asked for a warrant and destroyed all of your stuff.

Good luck with everything, it's an awkward situation that's for sure.

Regards,
James
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jmny6411

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« Reply #228 on: August 07, 2007, 05:11:00 AM »

QUOTE(FallsInc @ Aug 6 2007, 10:17 PM) View Post

small update.

my gf's mom cooled off, and now i can go back over there...

an ICE agent called me to say that can get some of my stuff back. (didn't say what it was, i'd imagine they are still looking at hard drives) smile.gif

and just a note: they didn't really bust down the door or anything, they just woke everyone up really early expecting to surprise me i guess...

thanks to everyone that sent in a donation. every little bit helps. laugh.gif


Was this definatley a sting? From someone who bought from you?

any news about your customer list-do you get the feeling that they are going after them?  ( I know if you ask them directly they will give you a jerkwad answer just to keep them paranoid)
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Sinner666

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« Reply #229 on: August 07, 2007, 07:25:00 AM »

QUOTE(FallsInc @ Aug 6 2007, 09:17 PM) View Post

small update.

my gf's mom cooled off, and now i can go back over there...

an ICE agent called me to say that can get some of my stuff back. (didn't say what it was, i'd imagine they are still looking at hard drives) smile.gif

and just a note: they didn't really bust down the door or anything, they just woke everyone up really early expecting to surprise me i guess...

thanks to everyone that sent in a donation. every little bit helps. laugh.gif


Good to hear about the kid.  Just remeber to keep your priorities straight throught all this crap, which means the kid comes first.

Also you do have a lawyer right?  If so you might want to send him to pickup the stuff just in case...
Or maybe I have been on the forums too long and have an overly developed sense of paranoia....
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sicknasty413

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« Reply #230 on: August 07, 2007, 09:15:00 AM »

QUOTE(Sinner666 @ Aug 7 2007, 10:01 AM) *

Or maybe I have been on the forums too long and have an overly developed sense of paranoia....

You think you're paranoid? I hear a car door shut outside and I sprint to my window to see if it's a cop!  (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
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grim_d

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« Reply #231 on: August 07, 2007, 08:48:00 AM »

QUOTE(sicknasty413 @ Aug 7 2007, 04:15 PM) View Post

You think you're paranoid? I hear a car door shut outside and I sprint to my window to see if it's a cop!  unsure.gif


stop smoking crack then!  ph34r.gif
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Sinner666

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« Reply #232 on: August 07, 2007, 09:03:00 AM »

QUOTE(FallsInc @ Aug 6 2007, 09:17 PM) View Post

an ICE agent called me to say that can get some of my stuff back. (didn't say what it was, i'd imagine they are still looking at hard drives) smile.gif


Let us know how the pickup went and what you got back.
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FallsInc

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« Reply #233 on: August 07, 2007, 10:49:00 AM »

it was definitely a sting. an undercover agent ordered a modded wii from me, and they showed me the returned check when they were questioning me.

i got back a box, that had 4 empty hard drive boxes in it, and it had a few business cards from local PC shops in it, and they felt the need to take my high school ID card for some reason...

the other box has all xbox PSUs and other random parts, and some xbox hd caddies, and thats about it. they even came out and dropped it off. i do feel that for whatever the reason, this 1 guy is going out of his way to help me, cause there is no reason for him to drop off this stuff (that he admits that he doesn't understand why they took it), unless he genuinely felt bad for me (he could just have called me and told me to come pick it up just as easy). he's used to dealing with drug smuggling, and child pornography and border security, not some 20 something guy from northwest ohio thats good with a soldering iron.

lol, i forgot one thing. a sealed xbox monster component cable... sealed. who needs to investigate new in box cables?

This post has been edited by FallsInc: Aug 7 2007, 05:50 PM
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reissy

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« Reply #234 on: August 07, 2007, 01:14:00 PM »


You know what I say

HACK THE PLANET

This post has been edited by reissy: Aug 7 2007, 08:14 PM
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80107

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« Reply #235 on: August 07, 2007, 04:17:00 PM »


Help "Abolish the Digital Millenium Copyright Act" hosted on the web by the free online petition service, at:    

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/nixdmca/
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agibby5

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« Reply #236 on: August 07, 2007, 07:26:00 PM »

QUOTE(FallsInc @ Aug 7 2007, 12:49 PM) View Post


lol, i forgot one thing. a sealed xbox monster component cable... sealed. who needs to investigate new in box cables?


one word, WOW!!!  I guess they were also caught up in the excitement, grabbing at any and everything they could.  I never understood that part... how can they take stuff like that?  I'm sure they still have stuff that's unrelated.  Oh well, good luck!  smile.gif
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Sinner666

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« Reply #237 on: August 09, 2007, 01:55:00 PM »

Since this seems to be the place to ask, anyone one have any updates?  On FallsInc or any other cases?
Charges, arrests, indictments ... ?
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Jynteral

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« Reply #238 on: August 09, 2007, 04:34:00 PM »

Thursday, August 9, 2007
Mod Chip Raids: What Happens Now?

In the wake of the ongoing mod chip raids, I'm sure many people are wondering what happens next. So, whether you've been raided or are just casually following the story with an air of curiosity, here is a general overview of what can happen after the Immigrations and Customs Enforcement raids are completed. Of course, there can by any amount of time lag between these steps, and they can also occur in multiple different orders. In fact, some of these events can span years. Consider the following a general outline of the process that changes in actual application to most situations.

Phase I: Raid Aftermath
1. There is a raid, items are seized.
2. The seized items end up in a warehouse somewhere.
3. The ICE agents, along with the investigators and often the company who requested ICE enforcement examine the items and analyze their course of action. (In this case, it would seem that Microsoft, Sony, and/or Nintendo requested the raids since the mod chips theoretically affect their rights. Based on the press release, the ESA was also involved.)
4. This is the point in the process where there is typically the longest delay, while everyone analyzes their course of action. This would also be the ideal time for someone who was raided to retain counsel, before anything gets worse.
5. At this point, it is typically just an investigation, and no one has been charged or sued for anything yet.

Phase II: Initial Actions
1. During this phase, if someone is going to be released for lack of evidence or error, this is the most likely time. However, this may take some negotiations or arguments to get off free and clear, so to speak. If the party is released, the seized property should be returned in a reasonable amount of time.
2. The companies and/or the government may wish to enter negotiations for settlement.
3. The companies and/or the government may file initial temporary restraining orders or injunctions on those who were raided in order to prevent further activities.
4. The government may begin freezing assets or have warrants issued on future shipments.
5. During this phase, representation by counsel is probably the most important because it is still theoretically possible to avoid Phases III-V.

Phase III: Legal Action
1. The government may proceed with criminal charges, which can result in jail sentences and/or fines and/or forfeiture of seized property.
2. The companies may initiate a civil suit over the rights of theirs which were violated. This can result in monetary damages, permanent injunctions and/or restraining orders.
3. Counsel is necessary at this point. A public defender can be appointed for the criminal trial if the defendant cannot afford counsel.

Phase IV: Legal Outcome
1. If the defendant loses either of the above actions, the penalty will be assessed.
2. If the defendant wins, the property should be returned and the defendant can walk away free and clear.

Phase V: Counter Suit
It is possible for the defendant to counter sue on the civil matter, be that for defamation, anti-trust, or simple damages (this depends on the particular case). The government, however, is immune from suits of this nature in these circumstances.

Phase VI: Future Raids
What is important to remember is that a victory in this raid does not necessarily provide any protection from future raids. ICE may be back a year from now or ten years from now, and the particulars from this raid do not impact that future raid.


That is a basic outline of the process, and it is one that occurs in many industries frequently. While I personally still find it puzzling that the raids were on mod chip sellers rather than sellers of pirated games, as discussed in my prior post, the overall process should still reflect this outline. It is, unfortunately, a long, hard road after being raided by ICE.
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buttface96

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« Reply #239 on: August 16, 2007, 10:56:00 PM »

FallsInc, Appleguru, and all affacted by the raids; I cannot imagine the frustration you are experiencing by this event. I've worked with Appleguru ever since I joined the scene back in 04, and he has always been a tremendous help and honest seller, its tough seeing people whom have helped you in a skill, like a teacher to be tossed around and embarrassed. I hope all works out well for all of you


Mike
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