| QUOTE (gronne @ Nov 19 2004, 02:41 AM) |
I haven't said they didn't, have I? They would still love to see Israel dissolved, and I can understand them, but since Arafat was the official negotiator(in the beginning) his words were used in the struggle for all palestinians, and he did (eventually) admit there should be a two-state solution. It's really sad there were terrorist-groups under PLO. Hamas and other groups take it way too far. But since nothing works, I can understand the frustration.
I would like to know if you think Israel was such a good idea after all the problems it's caused. The jews would still be jews without zionism. It's pretty rare with people having their own countries, and I don't think most of them suffer too badly. |
I can understand their frustration as well, especially the generations born since 1967. They now know what it was like for the Jews for the last 2000 yrs. Nobody wants them, and they have no place to go.
But that doesnt mean I believe they have a legitimet claim to the land. What this really boils down to in the end is racism (im not saying your a racist - im only implying you dont know the arab mentality when it comes to Jewish or any other religious influence for that matter ruling). You want to go further back than 1948? Try 1917 when the Arabs tried to wipe out the Jews in the surrounding areas, 850,000 jews fled the arab countries because of it. Or even better, when the League of nations told 600,000 (540,000 actually left) arabs to leave Israel so that invading armies could wipe out the Jews that lived there so that they could "move into Jewish houses when they returned." This was yet another unsuccessful attempt to get rid of the Jews in the area (primariyl because abt 800,000 of the fleeing jews mentioned above moved to Israel). They tried this exact same tactic 1948. Told the arabs to leave so that the Jews could be exterminated - and it didnt work out. The interesting thing is that their were a lot of arabs that stayed and fought side by side with the Jews, and they are the current Israeli-arab population that represents about 22% of the total population.
To say was the state of Israel a good idea is almost a non issue. Quite frankly - the rest of the world had very little to do with the creation of Israel and it probably would have happened regardless of whether or not the UN drew up the lines. The British set it up for failure, thinking that the other arab states, with their help, would simply crush it and things would go back the way they were. They never thought that the Israelis would win. The Israelites wanted it, fought for it, and got it despite what world oppinion wanted and over whelming odds against them. That alone, gives them legitamacy over the land especially since they are so willing to embrace the non-jews that lived and fought beside them.
My view is this, that unless your a canaanite, you dont have more of a legitimate tie to that land than the Jews. While the palestenians like to claim they are descendants of the Canaanites, they are not. The arabs also like to say that the Jews abondaned their homeland, but that simply is not true either. This is two ways that Arabs could take the legitamacy away from the Israelis and they fail on boths. The third of course would be to take them out through war, which they have also failed at numerous times.
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| 2000 years ago is still 2000 years ago. |
You seem to continue saying "it was 2000 years ago" and what not. Well, how long does it take for a people to no longer have a legitimet tie with that reasoning? What is it 5 yrs? 100 yrs? 500 yrs? 1000 yrs? Obviously you think its atleast 2000 yrs. When someone has taken something from you that is extremely valuable, it doesnt matter how long ago it was so long as it has remained valuable in their hearts. And it clearly has remained important to them over the years. Maybe 2000yrs from now the Indians will re-take over America. But for right now, its the Israelis that have re-taken their land.
You also say that Jews dont get treated that badly around the world. I just dont know how you can say that. Sure it has gotten better, but it is far from equael. I dont know what its like in sweden, but in the US their are more "Hate Crimes" commited against Jews than any other minority in the US. Even in the 12 months after 911 happened while everyone was expecting to see an arab hate crime spike (and dont get me wrong here, there was one), the Jews were still more persecuted. The tides of anti-semetism keep rolling in all over the world year after year.
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| Yeah but they are still individuals when they join, right? Sure, Hamas tricks kids to terrorist acts, which is awful to say the least, but Hamas should not be representative for the struggle. I can definitely see how they make the situation worse, which is really sad. |
To say that suicide bombers are just acting as individuals because they were individuals before they joined hamas is obsurd. Once you join an organization and take an order to do something on behalf of that organization, and then you do it, you are no longer simply an individual working alone. I do think it is sad when it happens for both sides though.
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| How often does groups of terrorists stand in the open? It's not very hard to know they're innocents. Or is it OK to guess??? |
They do it all the time, they put there women and children in front of them as shields and then shoot bullets, lob rocks and molotov cocktails at the Israeli soldiers.
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Why the HELL would they settle with a measly 90% of CONQUERED soil? They had too much in the first place. Now, if Israel went back to the borders of '67, I'm sure the issue would be a lot less problematic. Israel is such a great mistake. I have no idea how UN could give away soil to jews only because they asked for it. They really didn't care anything about the muslims. Sure, the jews haven't had it easy, but why should the muslims suffer for their pity? The whole thought of a nation for a specific people is so absurd there's no word for it.
ANYONE would act like the muslims to towards Israel. It's impossible to take land and expect no one to bother. That's not intelligent, that's stupid. And no matter how much you try to defend Israel, the muslims will never see it anyway else, and neither should they. The muslims are not stubborn, the jews claiming they have a right to stolen land are. |
If you dont want the israelis to take your land, dont attack them. Its as simple as that. Look at current lebanan border and compare it to the one in 1949 for the best example of how it works. And no, it would not help to role back the borders. That would still leave israel with land. Even if you take the approach that this is about Jeruselem, it still wouldnt help cause that would leave Israel with half of Jeruselem. The UN says the land was taken illegally cause the Israel did a pre-emptive strike, but no one argues with the fact that the surrounding nations were going to attack within days. And while Israel may be there for the Jews, they dont deny people of any nationality that want to come. They do have a 22% arab population that are considered full citizens. So it is very hard to argue that Israel is only for the Jews. The muslims wont be happy till Israel has total Muslim government in place.
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| Arafat was the official negotiator(in the beginning) his words were used in the struggle for all palestinians, and he did (eventually) admit there should be a two-state solution. |
My original post said that if Yasser was serious about peace and a two state solution he would have marginalized the Hamas. I still believe this to be true. Hamas has an enormous influence over the palestenians because they run free medical clinics, have food bank, and provide free education. They also recruit youngsters to blow themselves up. Yasser had the opportunity to start his own programs under the Palestenian league and show the Palestenians that their are other options. Instead, he allowed Hamas to attain and some cases granted them more power even after he said he wanted a two state solution. Anyone with a brain can see that that is counter productive to peace, and that he clearly had no intentions for peace or a two state solution.
