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[melon]

and Christians and Jews untill recently lived in Iraq.
You cant defend Israels actiontowards Palastine, world opinion is against them.
If they are doing nothing wrong why do major countries publically criticise and condem Israel?

And changing the poll name lowers you into the depths of nemt. We have a different political opinion to you, and worldwide far more people agree with my view about Isreal.
Its pathetic and an abuse of power to get your narrow minded view accross.
You have made some good arguments in the past so why lower yourself??

[gronne]

You can never justify an occupation of land, specifically of land you've never had. And 2000 years ago doesn't count. Zionism is wrong in its essence. It's segregation at its peak. It's tragic to see people like BJ support them. If americans were muslims in general, we'd never see them supporting Israel. USA only support them for religious reasons. Nothing is justified with Israel.

I read Israelis being afraid of a major conflict with EU. This will end up with a new cold war with USA and EU, and probably all of Europe. But EU can never allow Israel to act like this.

[BenJeremy]

QUOTE (melon @ Oct 15 2004, 08:52 AM)

and Christians and Jews untill recently lived in Iraq. You cant defend Israels actiontowards Palastine, world opinion is against them. If they are doing nothing wrong why do major countries publically criticise and condem Israel? And changing the poll name lowers you into the depths of nemt. We have a different political opinion to you, and worldwide far more people agree with my view about Isreal. Its pathetic and an abuse of power to get your narrow minded view accross. You have made some good arguments in the past so why lower yourself??

Yes, that was certainly a bastion of tolerance under Saddam, eh? Freedom is more than a check item on a list of to-dos. The lone jew in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan was allowed to exist, but forced to wear a Star of David on his clothes, and forbidden to practice his religion or talk to others. It's a different degree of tolerance, and not one that could be considered "good" in any sense of the word - indeed, it might not even be called tolerance, in the way we accept it here in America.

There are a lot more Christians and Jews in Iraq now, though... and both Iraq and Iran have the capacity to return to the cosmopolitan, progressive region they used to be, once things settle down in Iraq (as they have in Afghanistan) and the Iranians finally get sick of the Ayatollahs. That is the hope of the situation there, should we have the strength to see it through.


BTW: In case you Jew haters haven't noticed, the Intifada is over. The fence (which you hate for one reason... the one I'm about to mention) has prevented many attacks, and greatly reduced the effectiveness of the cowardly terrorist tactics of the Islamic death cults.

I agree Israel should leave the occupied territories, but Israel exists, and should remain in place (not the occupied territories, but the current "sovereign" nation of Israel) as long as the people there wish it to be. The Palis have nobody to blame for their situation but the Arab world. Several wars against Israel and stinging defeat lead to the occupied lands, and a policy of denying aid the Arab world can provide with their oil wealth to foment discontent should make you seething mad, not the struggles of people who just wish to be able to work and live without the constant threat of violence against them by people who view them as infidels.

EDIT (Added info)

I'd also like to add that Israel is not only a country of "Jews" - Christians, Palestinians (Israeli Palis), Arabs - they are all an active part o the country. Israel would be very content to allow the Palesinians to have their state, if they actually could demonstrate peaceful intentions for co-existance, but the history, statements, and even maps on the walls of the PA tell a far different story. They wish the destruction of Israel. Meanwhile, the Palis ignore the FACT that they are treated like unwanted red-headed step children by their supposed Arab "allies".

Please also consider what happens if the United State decided NOT to sand with Israel.... as much as we help encourage the most democratic, free country in the region, we also restrain them from many things; while I do not ascribe the evil intentions you Jew-haters do, it doesn't take much to imagine any state, in desperation for its survival, resorting to using whatever tools available to prevent destruction. Unlike petty dictators like Saddam, who only understand intimidation and terror, Israel likely understands how to use its nukes, and I'd also be willing to bet any "final gambit" would involve setting off Syria's own WMD stockpiles int he Bakkha Valley. It's called area denial, and the occupied lands would get the treatment. Yes.... take away America, turn the world against them, and what would you expect? ...and if they are as evil as you seem to think, those nukes would also get deployed in all of the "holy cities" of Islam, for good measure. Your own "solution" is worse than status quo even!

Of course, the Israelis have demonstrated they are willing to give up the occupied territories (witness Sinai), if peace and security can be assured. It's a shame that those parties who claim to only desire a Palestinian state refuse to denounce terrorism and militarism (which is a joke, since the Israelis could wipe them out in a heartbeat, if it was their intention), becuase that would lead to honest, open talks... and real pressure to solve the question of a Palestinian state in the region.

[melon]

QUOTE

The fence (which you hate for one reason... the one I'm about to mention) has prevented many attacks, and greatly reduced the effectiveness of the cowardly terrorist tactics of the Islamic death cults.

I cant think of anything more desperate and brave as to strap explosives onto your cheast and blow yourself up, just to try and end the oppression for others.
What else do you want them to do?
They cant exactly jump into there tanks or call an airforce can they?
What other method would you use? I am not advacating what they do because innocent deaths are wrong, but you have to understand they had no other choice.

If Israel are so innocent why did  a tank kill an English television reporter who was walking very slowly towards with hands in the air waving a white flag, and shouting he is a journalist? It was filmed there is evidence.
Israel is constantly attacked by other governments for its treatment of Palastine.
I am assuming that Tony Bliar, Jacque Chirac, Putin, Anan and many other heads of state (+Anan), know more about this situation than yourself. All there parties have openly strongly criticised Israel and tried to hold Israel accountable but the US blocks the motion.

I know im repeating myself but if all these countries have seen what is going on, i can see myself from watching the news, then why cant you?
Are all these countries wrong?
Its funny how some Americans think there right all the time no matter how much evidence exists showing something completely different.

[BenJeremy]

I can think of nothing more cowardly than strapping explosives to yourself to blow up a bus load of women and children, who never wished harm or ill will upon your family, all because some (even more cowardly) jackass "honored" you by selecting you for a mission.

Suicide is a cowards way to death, which some people greatly desire. There is no bravery in attaining what one desires, unless it may involve potential pain or suffering of some kind; I don't think a young boy involved in a so-called "martyr operation" thinks his death will be anything but instant, followed by the supposed reward of heaven. If he merely blew himself up in demonstration, without involving INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, I'd applaud his efforts (doesn't mean I'd consier him brave, though), and wish him the best of luck on the other side.... but when he does this to KILL AND MAIM others, who have nothing to do with his cause, other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I for one know, if there is such a place, he will NOT be going to heaven, and will burn in hell, instead, for such an act of EVIL.

[melon]

QUOTE

but when he does this to KILL AND MAIM others, who have nothing to do with his cause, other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I for one know, if there is such a place, he will NOT be going to heaven, and will burn in hell, instead, for such an act of EVIL.

Could easily be for American soldiers in Iraq...

Almost 15,000 deaths in Iraq since the war started.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[gronne]

Commiting suicide takes an enormous amount of bravery. I'm not sure if religious people feel that, since they don't fear death. I don't support the suicide bombers a bit, but I can see WHY they do it. I don't support violence at all.

And I have never said I hate jews like BJ would want you to think, but I hate jews that justify Israels actions, there's a big difference to that. BJ is not only lying, but he clearly shows he is anti-islam. Talk about one-dimensional. Maybe he's just a compulsive liar, what do I know. But we can clearly see that he's supporting Israel, when he acts like them himself. Changing the poll in true undemocratic Israeli spirit. Talk about american forced democracy... in a forum

[Morglum]

I wouldnt worry too much gronne, he'll close the thread now that his arse has been handed to him on a plate several times by melon.

Oh and melon, well said on everything mate. You've said it and put it all in a way far better than i or anyone else for that matter could have done.

[sgcgirl52]

Okay forst of all to defend what I have said.  Isreal DID have a war game with Germany and they did win the way that I had said.  You do know what a war game is right, Melon? apparently not.  Its with sensors and computers.  They take the air and fight as they would in war but instead of actually firing they uses compy sensors and things along those lines.  Just to clear that stuff up.
And second of all, Isreal didn't  get there land form the UK.  During WWII Britian got Jews and Arabs to help them by promising the land to both parties.  Then, after the war, the british decided to not honor tehre bargin/treaty and styed until right before the fighting really started.   Jews were trying to get there own homeland, so there would be a place for us to go if there was another Hitler.  The UN tried to get us to take a place in a barren reigion of Africa and needless to say it was turned down.  Any how, Jews went to Isreal and started Kabutizes (farms in a rather communist like living).  THen they got enough of them there and there was enough support for the moevment that Isreal declared independence on May 15, 1948.  the US was the first country to recognize Isreal.  Then within hours of declaring Independence, ALL of there neighbors declared war on Isreal.  Isreal won against all of them.  Then there were otherwars along the line, and Isreal won all of them again.  Needless to say Isreal has proven itself.  And have won their right to be there.  Even if you don't like them, the rule of the world has always been that if you win the war you right the history books as well as get the spoiles.  That aside, Isreal has over the years given up more and more land.  At one point, they had decided, that if it would help peace, they would leave the terrioties and such, but Arafat decided no. all or nothing.  So much of the death can be blamed on him no the Isrealis who have tried to actually talk or negotiate.  They are not all hate monster.  As are a lot of Palestinans (meaning not all Palestinans are hate monsters that will never see understanding...cause a lot of them are jhust caught in the middle).  

Melon adn those who agree with him.  I'm guessing you get most of your information form CNN and BBC world news right?  They are so slanted it is funny.  They say that 10 Palestinans died but neglect to say that they were all confrimed Hamas members.  Or some other bs like that.  

And as a last comment I must say Melon, that if your so concerned with my image and if I do/do not look like an idiot.  Please Mr. Ignorant, be more concerned about your self.

~*~Temma~*~

P.S.  I have many Family Friends who live in Isreal (some who have been tehre since the beginging...so I think I have a little bit of insite on the issue.)

P.P.S.  I really don't think religion has much to do with it other then why the modern Isreali State was formed.  I don't automatically support Isreal because I'm Jewish.  I actually look at all the facts.  Form teh begining to now.  How Isreal cleaned the country up. Rid it of swamp lands, started an economy, gave ppl a place to escape pogroms, and so much more.  If both sides could just sit down and sort there problems out like adults that actually cared about peace then I think I would be happy.  BTW if you still haven't gottne it yet,  I may not agree with a lot of what Isreal does, but I like them a lot more then I like the alternitive.

[M3_DeL]

may the strongest man win, why should isreal have to let someone stay? Everyone should back out and let the 2 fight, whoever wins, gets all of Israel.

In all seriousness, I support Israel and every thing they do, minus backing out of the parts of Israel they let the palestininan people stay in. Any group of people that are led by a man who founded the PLO (read, socially accpetable terrorists) are not thinking with their heads on straight. And if you think that this figure head puppet prime minister (or what ever he is) is the leader of the pal people then you are very blind.....

[melon]

M3 del you are an idiot, seriously, what have you contributed?
Morglum cheers mate.
I think anyone who has seen top gun knows what a war game is. The name itself is self explanetary.

How can you say the BBC is biased??
It is respected throughout the world, and is the only truly independent news organisation as it is public funded. If you think that this would make it pander to the government you are wrong, as has been proven recently with bitter tensions beteen the two.

Your a Jew which automatically makes you biased, just like a muslim would probably be biased the other way. I dont give a fuck about religion so I could take a neutral stance and look at the facts. And the facts are Israel are in the wrong.
If you want a link about the creation of Israell
http://news.bbc.co.u...story/78601.stm

I just read over your post again to find points to pick-up and counter argue but there isnt any. You just waffle on untill it looks like you have written a large piece.
Why dont you look at my posts find something you disagree with and argue againsnt me. You have done the same as BJ, arguing bullshit although you dont seem as racist.


This is stupid Israel has no case for defence, you can see this by the bollocks being wrote in there support and the fact I am having to repeat myself in almost every post.


If you dont know much about the situation this is a good nuetral site.
http://news.bbc.co.u...ans/default.stm
or take a look on the UN website www.un.org

[sgcgirl52]

BBC  has some of the most biased news reports in the world about Isreal.  THey have been known to put ppl on gyrnies and say that they have been shot byt eh evil Isrealis. And the reason why you have to repeat your self, is because you don't kow shit about the situation over there and you think you do so you say the say thing over and over again.
Oh and only ppl I know can call me a "Jew". Especially in the way you put it.  You said it like it was gum stuck to your shoe.  ANd you know what, If you read the bottom of my post then you'd know that I don't support Isreal because I'm jewish.  I look at the facts and not just something off of BBC (who may be reliable on some things but Isreal is not one of them).  Isreal has a right to fight with all they have.  The PLO and Hamas are the terriost not the Isrealis.  THey are trying to find a way to have poeace without letting there ppl die horrible deaths because some group thinks they should have the land instead of the ones who had it first, were kicked out, killed by evil leadres, and then finally came back and won th land back over and over agian.  You seem to hate Isreal because its the thing to do.

Oh and I am definaitly not racist.  You throw that word around like its nothing.  You use it when you can't think of somehting better to say about a person who disagrees with you.

Oh and here are some facts I'd like to share with you:
The following material was written by an American Christian
professor.
It's important information to know since we don't
get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend
to get lost in the jumble of daily events.

  Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict Here are some conveniently
overlooked facts in the current Middle East situation. These were
compiled
by a Christian university professor.

       HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT
  TODAY....Takes just 1.5 minutes to read!!!! It makes sense and it's
not
slanted. Jew and non-Jew it doesn't matter. Thank You.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E.,
   two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
   Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment
   of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion
   over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence
   in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more
   than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.
   Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity.
   Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to
   make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy
   Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
   Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
   Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged
   to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews.
   Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab
   brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11.The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to
   be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is
   estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into
the
   Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out
   of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only
   refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or
   integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were
   completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state
   of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight
    separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only
    one Jewish nation.  The Arab nations initiated all five wars and
    lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of
    Israel.  Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank
    land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied
    them with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the
Jews
    denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim
    Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people
    of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security
Council
    resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429
    were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N. was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by
    the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated
    the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like
    policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the
    Western Wall.

And my post may be long but if read what is actually written in them you'll notice I am responding to a lot of what you've said and yes it may be a rant but it is a vaild one.  Hell I do read everything you spout.  


~*~Temma~*~

[jbp20717]

 - the only time an Arab would do that is if he were between Jerusalem and Mecca.
The fact that Jews lived in Palestine 2,000 years before has absolutely no bearing on the situation, in the same way that we don't get Norwegians coming to York and saying: "You know this used to be ours about..ooh..1,000 years ago so we want it back".

Also, the UK did not "play" the Jews and Arabs during WWII.  If you were more knowledgeable on the subject you'd know that the UK initially came up with the idea of a Jewish state in the early 20th century as there was a lot of jewish influence in Parliament at the time.  The Jews then took it upon themselves to move to Palestine and by the 1930s the UK decided to stop Jewish immigration because of growing tensions between Arabs and Jews.  The Jewish people then started guerilla warfare against the UK and resorted to act of terrorism such as the bombing of the King David Hotel after WWII - considering the efforts that the UK had gone to beforehand to create a Jewish state and fight Germany it's hardly very grateful behaviour.  The UK did not receive any help in the war effort from the Palestinian Jews, many of which even resorted to supporting the Vichy French in the region.  The arabic population at least held a neutral position.

QUOTE

They say that 10 Palestinans died but neglect to say that they were all confrimed Hamas members.

HAHA..so the life of a Hamas member is worth less than, say, yours, is it?

[gronne]

QUOTE

now, the bBC is about to air a documentary saying that global terrorism is not a real threat, only something being cooked up to scare people

WHAT?? Don't you think they do it to NOT scare people? Bush and Fox scare people all the time though.

Now I won't say BCC is unbiased, because I watch it way to seldom, but I know that the Swedish Public service TV is very unbiased. Since my government is socialistic I'm surprised it's not biased. But it's very good it's not. So taken Swedens Public service is unbiased I assume BBC to be unbiased. Nonetheless it's a lot more unbiased than the biggest TV-networks in USA. That's a bloody certainty.

sgcgirl: You wrote - "It's important information to know since we don't
get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend
to get lost in the jumble of daily events."

So by saying we don't get fair and accurate reporting from the media, you had to put out the MOST biased information possible. Wow, feels like it can't get more "fair" than that. Is the professor saying ANYTHING fair about the situation? And he might be a professor and all, but statements like "Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E.", don't add up to anything. They also lost the land about 2000 years ago. It's like jbp said, the norwegians (vikings) are not going to ask England back.

It's like melon says, you come up with pure BS. You defend yourself by putting up more statements, not by answering. To be honest you and BJ haven't said anything worth thinking about. I'm not saying muslims are saints or anything, but they sure are right about the situation. Now Israel shouldn't be dissolved, it would only make the problem worse. But they should go back to the borders of '67. If that helps anything, I don't know, however it's a huge step forward.

[sgcgirl52]

Okay just a few history things....The Dutch had NYC not the Norwegians, also some Irish lived there.  I definitly know this because its alot of my family history.  ANd if you ment the Vikings, then you ment parts of Canada.  But then again, the few Vikings that stayed, ended up getting with a local Indain tribe and with archeoligy and other such sciences it can be determined that they were in essences breede out,because their genes were ressesive to the Native Americans/Canadains. And the Norsemen who took over England oh so long ago...kept it.  They became the Anglo-Saxons and over time became there own country.