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[67thRaptorBull]

im just wondering who these people are, as my views were never really persuaded by an outside source....

[nemt]

QUOTE (67thRaptorBull @ May 17 2004, 06:49 PM)

im just wondering who these people are, as my views were never really persuaded by an outside source....

You're wondering who "these people" are because you're an idiot who bases his political ideas on SNL skits.

[IndieSnob]

I voted no. And as with any form of media be it print, web, tv, etc. I take anything from the left or right with a grain of salt untill I am able to read and form my own opinions on the matter.

[IndieSnob]

QUOTE (nemt @ May 17 2004, 04:29 PM)

You're wondering who "these people" are because you're an idiot who bases his political ideas on SNL skits.

Wow, attacking someone else in the thread instead of adding to it, way to push your point cross.

[nemt]

QUOTE (IndieSnob @ May 17 2004, 07:30 PM)

Wow, attacking someone else in the thread instead of adding to it, way to push your point cross.

Now now, don't get all testy just because you had never heard of Noam Chomsky before, either.

[IndieSnob]

QUOTE (nemt @ May 17 2004, 04:31 PM)

Now now, don't get all testy just because you had never heard of Noam Chomsky before, either.

Oh wow, and you made an uninformed assumption about whether or not I know of him. Just because you want to pin certian people as liberals doesn't mean you have to jump into a thread and assault anyones position just because you assume from other posts that they are just 'dumb biased liberals'. Do yourself a favor and try not to bring your temper to the table before your post, you're just making yourself look worse all by yourself.

[cainedna]

I'm not "anti-US," being liberal does not equate as such. I voted yes, but only in that I've read some of Chomsky's books. Anything you read will affect your opinion one way or another.
Not anti-US, I simply believe there's a lot of room for improvement.

[nemt]

QUOTE (IndieSnob @ May 17 2004, 07:36 PM)

Oh wow, and you made an uninformed assumption about whether or not I know of him. Just because you want to pin certian people as liberals doesn't mean you have to jump into a thread and assault anyones position just because you assume from other posts that they are just 'dumb biased liberals'. Do yourself a favor and try not to bring your temper to the table before your post, you're just making yourself look worse all by yourself.

You obviously didn't know of him then, and now only know of his name.  I don't need to "pin" anyone as a liberal, everyone seems to be pretty open about it, and the topic is even phrased as "[those] of you with anti-us sentiment," implying the question is for them alone.  I didn't assault anyone's position, I assaulted your intelligence and knowledge of political affairs, and I think I did a damn good job.  You're the one who seems to be losing his temper.  Turn off comedy central and pick up a newspaper, anything but the ny times will do just fine.

[nemt]

Chomsky is a great psychologist, but a terrible politician.  If you already have a calling, stick with it.  This implies mainly to comedy and psychology - we don't need either of you in politics.

-A Psychology/Political Science Student

[BloodyMary]

For the last f**king time I don't read Chomsky or Zinn... and I'm not an idiot...  

I'm not much of a reader of books at all... give me the cassette tape version or the CD version and I'll listen to it while I'm driving... I spend a lot of time on the road and that doesn't give me much time for reading... but plenty of time for listening...

And listen I do, to all kinds of stuff including much talk radio from both sides of the fence and some stuff not even near the fence at all...

None the less... I've not had the chance to hear/read Chomsky or Zinn... so I answered 'who'...

P.S. If you think me never reading either of those makes me stupid..  

[Intensecure]

Well, certainly you have picked the most inflammatory names to check one's influences! Although I don't think the "Anti-US sentiment" preface was required. As has been pointed out, sometimes laboriously, one does not have to be Anti-US, just Anti-US government policy - which so many people take personally. But I am sure you took that into account when phrasing the question!
Certainly, as a libertarian socialist myself who has obtained qualifications, albeit mainly in my late 30's rather than initially at college, in the social sciences, I have read much of Chomsky's political writings, and regularly read Znet @ http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm (a link I know will always go down well here     ).
I have always been a follower of John Pilgers writing since the eighties, and have found his books to be well researched and referenced. He is also an excellent, if sometimes over-vehement, speaker. His work, is of course, journalism based, rather than purely intellectual.
Chomsky is at the most radical end of the libertarian spectrum, with anti-Zionist views strongly expressed, and a powerful argument against modern American political policy (which unfortunately gets tangled up in some peoples minds as being anti-American) especially with regard to foreign policy. He is well read in Europe, probably in Canada, although I have no evidence for that, but less so on political matters in the US, statistically. One cannot deny, however, how well referenced his work is. There is never an argument presented without full researchable references and *facts*, which makes his work compelling and believable. His sources are generally sound, when compared with detractors who wil often quote only official policy documents.
He is, however, practically unparalleled in the field of linguistic studies, a fact which is universally appreciated.
The new popularity of people like Michael Moore is a whole different argument, which I won't dwell on here. Does his undoubted success reflect a changing mood towards political action and activism in the US, or is it simply "bestseller' syndrome, or "voyeur" enjoyment in the same vein as "real life" TV? I wish him continued success, however, because he is certainly reaching a larger audience than the established intellectual authors.
Great question - I assume you are Canadian, what was your reaction to the way Canadians were questioned, and answered, in "Bowling For Columbine?"

[melon]

In a right wing country what harm do the likes of chomsky and mr moore actually do?
There are enough right wing fanatics on tv already they are just helping to re-address the balance.

As for influence we have a political comedian called mark thomas. after he came to my city performing political stand-up there were protests about al sorts the week after.
I dont think this is a bad thing if it is making people more socially aware.

me personally i like to read information from both sides and then decide.

[Intensecure]

QUOTE

political comedian called mark thomas

MTCP - pity there won't be another C4 series from what I've read. Another person who shows that humour can be used to good effect. Although I always rated his activism over his humour  
Remember Menwith Hill and the balloon flights? And the on-going battle to get Nestle to play fair in Africa with regards to the baby feed? Funny, and effective.
Low-budget Michael Moore   who he fancied working with but C4 a bit tight on budget apparently vs ABC.
You are right about using whatever methods necessary to raise attention - and humour is very effective.

Speaking of Michael Moore:
The dual media approach of books and television/film has proven very powerful in creating a greater audience for the intellectual product of the author.
A good example would be Carl Sagan, whose "Cosmos" TV series was accompanied by a best-selling book. Undoubtedly charismatic, Sagan didn't "water down" the science, but made the concepts clearer for a wider range of people.
At the same time, there was a major increase in the sales of other books, magazines, and a greater interest in astronomy and science. Much seemed to have been provoked by this hugely successful TV series and book.
Michael Moore could have the same effect - best selling author, award-winning film maker, with Fahrenheit 9/11 receiving great acclaim and a 20 minute standing ovation at Cannes - could the combined, populist power of literature and TV/film provoke a greater reaction than literature could alone?
Some critiscism of Moore in the UK came in the form of "Chomsky for children" and too popularist with his "comedy/pathos" approach, but the counter argument ran - "you could fit the number of people who had read, and understood, Chomsky into a phone booth."
Moore is getting results. Mark Thomas did the same.

[Intensecure]

(And I seem to remember you being an authority on drumming as well! )
Seriously, thanks for the East Timor link - that will give me another source of serious information for debate amongst friends.
I have not read Chomskys latest book - I will be doing so shortly.
Thank you for inspiring serious debate.

Edit:

QUOTE

I agree that anti american is tangled with his work and unjustly so... but I also really believe there is a part of his following that embraces this

VERY valid point, and something that one who is trying to be constructive in discussing the current situation with respect to American affairs has to be especially aware of.

[melon]

I will admit I like Michael Moore and Chomsky (willl be reading the new book v.soon). I do think Moore has a purpose. We are educated people and can uderstand Chomsky. I have some socially conscous, less educated friends (do not confuse with less intellegent), I reccomended Chomsky but they found it a bit heavy. They read Moore and could relate to it.  

On anti-americanism, there will always be people who hate America as a whole because of its dubious foriegn policy. Then you have the narrow minded individuals who talk double-speak constantly. People who hate America will use any vehicle they can and are happy to jump on the chomsky bandwagon. Just as "anarchists" will go to any protest just to cause trouble in the name of anti-capitalism.

Maybe we should start a new thread about east timor although I feel there are other countries in more need of support at the moment (Nigeria is in chaos).


Interscope, I never got to see Mark Thomas' tv shows. I did see the special on the war though. I seen him in stand-up the Wednesday before the big march in London. I think the whole audience was going and the atmosphere was electric.