xboxscene.org forums

Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...  (Read 1874 times)

frieko

  • Archived User
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 115
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2008, 06:51:00 PM »

QUOTE
It would be a significant undertaking to try and retroactively patch/update Halo 3 to be optimized to take advantage of the HDD install features of NXE.


Wow, yes, a one line fix is so hard:

CODE

--- if ( hard_drive_present ) load_map_to_scratch_space(map_file);
+++ if ( hard_drive_present && !( installed_to_hd ) ) load_map_to_scratch_space(map_file);
    else run_map_directly(map_file);
Logged

Nepth

  • Archived User
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2008, 07:20:00 PM »

OK,

1) everyone, RTFA.  Stop postulating and guessing as to why this happens.  The article says it very clearly.

2) Yes, the game does have a check for the hdd, and caches if there is one present.  The game DOES NOT have a check for if the game is running off the hdd.  These are completely different checks.

3) The Halo3 cache is more than just maps.  Map vs maps is just different textures.  There's so much more that is caches that doesnt change between maps, ie: the engine, the player models, etc.  Just switching a map won't rewrite the entire cache.  Go play like 4 or 5 different games, then play halo 3.  You'll notice the load diference.

4)
Logged

somenutter

  • Archived User
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 119
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2008, 07:25:00 PM »

I can't believe after waiting months for the new dash to arrive bungie have allowed this to happen why
didnt they sort this out ages ago they knew this was going to happen what a load of b8ll*ks this game is like the
flagship title for 360 and its not been patched to address this issue what a sham  laugh.gif

If i played halo anymore id be really p7ss8d off  

Come on bungie dont mug yourselves get this sorted now!!
Logged

ska_drummer85

  • Archived User
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2008, 08:05:00 PM »

Nothing technical to add, but I did notice the same thing when I backed up Halo 2 to my Xbox 1. Campaign maps took 2-3 times longer off of HDD. Seems like it would be the same thing.
Logged

CoLD FiRE

  • Archived User
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 70
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2008, 12:50:00 AM »

So, the best solution after you installed the game to HDD

is to:

1- Run the game from DVD and let it load the maps
2- Exit to the Dashboard
3- Run the game off the HDD

 wink.gif
Logged

Mushy2000

  • Archived User
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 70
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2008, 03:05:00 AM »

Personally I think it more or less has to do with Installing to HD will make the game easy to hack, and bungie doesn't want that to happen, so they are encouraging people not to install...

Logged

CsL

  • Archived User
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2008, 03:07:00 AM »

There isn't a possibility to turn the scratch function off? I.e. clear and write-lock the partition, which is used as scratch.

I think most games areusing this scratch-partition. Xbox1 already had this feature.
Logged

luther349

  • Archived User
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 842
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2008, 04:18:00 AM »

well halo 3 aruldy took advantage of the hd. it just did it in game. installing on the hd make it use the hd heavy and wala more load time. its also good to note most new game where made to take advantage of nxe and being installed. so they will have shorter load time fable 2 is a good one to use as a example.
Logged

frieko

  • Archived User
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 115
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2008, 09:24:00 AM »

QUOTE(CsL @ Nov 20 2008, 11:43 AM) View Post

There isn't a possibility to turn the scratch function off? I.e. clear and write-lock the partition, which is used as scratch.


If there's a hard drive present, Halo expects it to be writable. When the write failed it would think "unknown error" and exit/reboot.
Logged

g8crapachino

  • Archived User
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 199
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2008, 01:21:00 PM »

QUOTE(riahc3 @ Nov 19 2008, 11:34 PM) View Post

I havent read the story but I call fake. Ill explain why it may load slower (its simple):

Disk fragmentation. With putting/removing movies, music, dashboard updates, etc data gets fragmentated. This also happened on Xbox 1 (even if most say it isnt possible because of the FATX file system) but wasn't as noticable (since there was no "content" for Xbox 1)


The article gave a very plausible, simple,  and real explanation for the slowdown.   There is absolutely nothing for Bungie to gain by making up a fake story so why would they?  Why is there always some cynical moron like you who jumps to wrong conclusions and assumes that everything they read is a fake?   What even makes you qualified to know that it's fake?  As I see it the only thing fake is you pretending to know more then you actually do.
Logged

Mozbius

  • Archived User
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 69
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2008, 01:32:00 PM »

QUOTE(Nepth @ Nov 20 2008, 02:56 AM) View Post

OK,

1) everyone, RTFA.  Stop postulating and guessing as to why this happens.  The article says it very clearly.

2) Yes, the game does have a check for the hdd, and caches if there is one present.  The game DOES NOT have a check for if the game is running off the hdd.  These are completely different checks.

3) The Halo3 cache is more than just maps.  Map vs maps is just different textures.  There's so much more that is caches that doesnt change between maps, ie: the engine, the player models, etc.  Just switching a map won't rewrite the entire cache.  Go play like 4 or 5 different games, then play halo 3.  You'll notice the load diference.

4)


+1

RTFA !!!!!!! It's annoying to see people arguing about stuff that are already answered. But it's even more when people start to talk about "simple programming" when they obviously don't seem to know much. Rule of thumbs for all you "PRO" programmers... If it look easy to you than most probably it isn't that easy!
Logged

g8crapachino

  • Archived User
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 199
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2008, 01:55:00 PM »

QUOTE(frieko @ Nov 20 2008, 02:27 AM) View Post

Wow, yes, a one line fix is so hard:

CODE

--- if ( hard_drive_present ) load_map_to_scratch_space(map_file);
+++ if ( hard_drive_present && !( installed_to_hd ) ) load_map_to_scratch_space(map_file);
    else run_map_directly(map_file);



Please, spare everyone your smug arrogance.  You're just anothing self proclaimed "genius" who thinks that just because he can write a few simple apps in Visual Studio that he has the answers to to everything.  Unless you work at Bungie you probable haven't got the slightlest clue as to what it would really take.    In the real world there are things to worry about beyond just the actual code when providing a fix to any application.
Logged

Devedander

  • Archived User
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 497
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2008, 05:56:00 PM »

QUOTE(MilkyNL @ Nov 19 2008, 03:02 PM) View Post

If you read the full story, you'll know the exact reason...


I mistook this part

QUOTE
To help explain why this is the case I tapped our uber engineer and Chief Caching Officer, Mat Noguchi, to answer a few questions.


As some kind of stayed tuned and we will get back to you later thing.  Didn't realize the story went further.

Anyhow makes total sense... exactly why I have multiple drives in my computer, keeps large file size copying snappy.
Logged

MrFish

  • Archived User
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 182
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2008, 06:28:00 PM »

Weh weh weh.

Would you like some cheese with your whine, Bungie?

So sorry that you're faced with having to do some engineering when a major OS update comes out and you'd really rather be doing fun new games. You must be the only company ever to find themselves in a situation like this. Suck it up, stop blaming the user, and fix your game.



Halo 2 had this exact same problem when you 'installed it to the hard drive'. The root cause was that it used a teeny-tiny block size when copying maps over. It would read a teeny-tiny amount, then immediately write it to the cache partition, then read the next teeny-tiny amount. Ostensibly this was because the Xbox only had 64MB to play in, but really it was so that the game would run well off the DVD, but mysteriously break off the hard disk. The reason, of course, being that reading from and writing to different devices means that most of the million seeks are to a place the heads are already at, but reading from and writing to the same device means it has to actually perform them and gets clobbered.

There's no reason Halo 3 has to be modified in any kind of hacky, 'detect and catch the corner-cases'way; all it needs to do is instead of reading a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then reading a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then reading a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then reading a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then reading a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then reading a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then reading a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, then reading a half-k or so, then writing a half-k or so, simply use a bigger buffer the exact way Halo:CE did.

I mean, you could do a benchmarked mad thrash-copy to work out whether you're running off the hard disk* (or a straight benchmarked read to work out if the device you're running off is fast enough to not need the cache), and then copy or not copy maps**, but there's no real point in doing so when you can just use a sensible buffer size like every other program in the known universe***. Copying files is not hard.

Getting a few million people to change their mind 'for the good of the community' is hard.





* the way the new OS implements the HD install is to use a disk image to emulate running off the disk, so the game can't just ask if it's on the hard disk or not
** Another solution would be to release a 'Halo 3 maps on your hard disk' bit of DLC: Halo doesn't cache DLC maps, because it can tell that they're already on the hard disk.
*** Does Windows go batshit when you (copy c:\large_file c:\copy_of_large_file)? No it does not.
Logged

neoxalucard

  • Archived User
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Halo 3 and NXE: HDD Install Causes Slower Loading Times ...
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2008, 07:14:00 PM »

Here is a video i threw together to show H3 and NXE in action.

Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3