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Author Topic: Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11  (Read 324 times)

lordvader129

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2005, 12:47:00 PM »

QUOTE
The point is...there is a clear difference between making exceptions, and flat out allowing something. Previously we made exceptions, the Patriot Act flat out allows the violation of civil liberties.

cops dont give other cops tickets. period. another cop doesnt have to justify why he was speeding while off duty, he just shows his badge and is free to go, thats not an exception, its an unspoken rule, if they were to pass a law saying off duty cops dont have to abide by traffic regulations it would simply mean they dont have to pretend this doesnt happen every day

the only real change from the patiot act is that groups like the nsa dont have to feel any slight pang of guilt when they go about doing what theyve always done, and never had to be accountable for

if the patriot act wasnt passed nothing would be different, except maybe a lot of pressure would have been put on NBC to not publish that article about the database of protest groups, and NBC would have caved and never printed it, or pulled it from the website with a retration about how they had bad sources or soemthing like that

so unless you honestly think some magical force was someday going to come along and hold the government responsible for all of their own laws that theyve broken (HA!) the patriot act changes absolutely NOTHING
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pug_ster

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2005, 02:32:00 PM »

QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 18 2005, 08:54 PM) View Post

cops dont give other cops tickets. period. another cop doesnt have to justify why he was speeding while off duty, he just shows his badge and is free to go, thats not an exception, its an unspoken rule, if they were to pass a law saying off duty cops dont have to abide by traffic regulations it would simply mean they dont have to pretend this doesnt happen every day

the only real change from the patiot act is that groups like the nsa dont have to feel any slight pang of guilt when they go about doing what theyve always done, and never had to be accountable for

if the patriot act wasnt passed nothing would be different, except maybe a lot of pressure would have been put on NBC to not publish that article about the database of protest groups, and NBC would have caved and never printed it, or pulled it from the website with a retration about how they had bad sources or soemthing like that

so unless you honestly think some magical force was someday going to come along and hold the government responsible for all of their own laws that theyve broken (HA!) the patriot act changes absolutely NOTHING


It is all about checks and balances.  The NSA agent usually asks the judge for a warrant/court order before doing so.  If the person is suspected to be involved in terrorism, the judge probably doesn't question and allows them to do so.   What about someone peace group who doesn't exactly support Bush's ideas?  Do you think it is illegal to not support Bush's ideas?  No, the Judge certainly won't allow that to happen.  With the patriot act, some NSA agent can look into Peace activists without the intervention of the Judges.

Bush's patriot act broke the checks and balances and gave more power to the executive branch of the government.  This week Bush blasted at the senate because they didn't want to extend the Patriot act.  Bush to take power away from the Legistative and judical branch so that he can boost his power.  Many dictators and despots are born by taking away powers from the other branches of the government and give it to themselves.
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pug_ster

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2005, 09:12:00 AM »

I am just listening to Bush's usual b1tching speech like a girl about why can't the patriot act renewed and the impeeding doom by an invisible enemy if we don't renew the Patriot Act.  I honestly don't know how many different variations of his speech like this one.  

Wiretaps without court approval - Even before 9/11, wiretaps without a court order is allowed (but you need a court order within 72 hours) under extraordinary circumstances.  So I don't know what Bush is talking about judges as 'red tape.'  In fact since 1979, of the about 19,000 wiretap requests are asked only 5 of them are rejected.

Bush says that it was a shameful act to disclose this information and it 'emboldens' the enemy.  The New York Times knew about this story but sat on this story for a year because the White House asked them not to post it.  I don't know how are we hinting at the 'enemy' when the news didn't went specific on what kind of wiretapes out there was taken.  Some of the senate already knew about this NSA spying, but they are required by law not do disclose this information to the public and they did.

It seemed to me that the more Bush talk, the more pathetic he gets.
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damam

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2005, 10:37:00 AM »

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Dec 19 2005, 05:19 AM) View Post
Wiretaps without court approval - Even before 9/11, wiretaps without a court order is allowed (but you need a court order within 72 hours) under extraordinary circumstances.  So I don't know what Bush is talking about judges as 'red tape.'  In fact since 1979, of the about 19,000 wiretap requests are asked only 5 of them are rejected.

fisa courts have only turned down 2 . . . its basically a guarantee you will get them if you ask
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lordvader129

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2005, 11:29:00 AM »

QUOTE(damam @ Dec 19 2005, 11:44 AM) View Post

fisa courts have only turned down 2 . . . its basically a guarantee you will get them if you ask

how many requests were never submitted because they knew theyd be turned down, but then wiretaps installed anyway, off the record?

you say the patriot act means that big brother is watching, but big brother has been watching for as long as big brother has had eyes and ears, and before you say theres checks and balances in place, think about it, whos checking and balancing? the same government thats planting the wiretaps, they all just look the other way in the same direction

sure, you say nixon tried it and got in alot of trouble, but thats only because some reporters found out and went public, how often does this happen and no one knows about it?

maybe being raised by the daughter of a former nazi officer means my family was subject to more scrutiny, but believe me, the government has ALWAYS spied on people, with or without court issued warrants
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red.bull.x

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2005, 11:56:00 AM »

QUOTE
Most of these people in the NSA 'infilitrate' these peace groups posing themselves as peace activists. It is basically the same as some NARC infilitrate a drug ring by joining them. At least the NARC would get a warrant/court order to do so.


pug_ster,


You are quick to blame the US. Government and the Bush administration for everything. I want you to do me a favor 'go get you some'  then come back here and bitch about your freedom and privacy being violated. If your so concerned about it do something. Don't post your Anti-American propaganda on xbox-scene. Freedom costs a dear price. War is a dirty business nobody ever said it wasn't. Ask yourself something tonight while your playing around on your xbox or clicking away on your keyboard playing 'arm chair general'. Is there something I can do to change my future and the future of my children to insure their safety? To insure my own privacy and protect the freedom from which you obviously take for granted. Do you know what it's like to loose your friends in a war? To watch your best friend cough up blood while you are holding his intestines in your hands trying to keep them from spilling all over the place while bullets are flying over your head? Making a clap clap clap sound? The sound of an AK-47? Then a couple of mortor rounds go off? Do you know what it's like to lay in your hooch at night hearing car bombs go off outside the LSA where your living? You know what it's like reading letters from your wife telling you the electric company is cutting off the lights this month because the bill hasn't been paid while your off in some 3rd world country several thousand miles away from home getting shot at and in constant fear of loosing your life? Or the rent hasn't been paid and your family is facing eviction on the 1st of the month? Your wondering if your even going to make it that long? Have ya ever been powerless? NO i seriously doubt it. Have you ever herd insurgents running around outside ur hooch and you can hear the crunch crunch from the rocks outside... then you hear a door from one of the hooches getting kicked and some gunfire going off? Ever herd someone get on the radio late at night and say India 1 India 1 over. Yeah this is India 1 go ahead. Yeah Mike Bravo has reported insurgents thoroughing mattresses over the wire to jump the t-walls we need you to secure the LSA immediately. Or BOOM! we need everyone in a hard structure. Everyone needs to report to a hard structure... Its some scary shit... And yeah it's normal people just like you over there. So while you sit there and enjoy stuffing your face with food and playing your 'action packed' games remember something there are people risking there lives and making sacrifices 'freedoms' included to protect you from real threats 'terrorists living inside the USA'  planning attacks inside US soil.  And btw, NSA has a mission, you really think they are going to jeopardize there mission which is far more important than you will ever understand. Until you have made the same sacrifices, your just talking out of your ass.

Im all about freedom and privacy! but unless you have made some effort to insure it and protect it. How can you back up your statements? People who stand for nothing will fall for anything. Where are your principles? Your loyalty? Whos side are you on?
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pug_ster

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2005, 01:21:00 PM »

QUOTE(red.bull.x @ Dec 19 2005, 08:03 PM) View Post

pug_ster,
You are quick to blame the US. Government and the Bush administration for everything. I want you to do me a favor 'go get you some'  then come back here and bitch about your freedom and privacy being violated. If your so concerned about it do something. Don't post your Anti-American propaganda on xbox-scene. Freedom costs a dear price. War is a dirty business nobody ever said it wasn't. Ask yourself something tonight while your playing around on your xbox or clicking away on your keyboard playing 'arm chair general'. Is there something I can do to change my future and the future of my children to insure their safety? .....


You should consider living in Russia, China, or North Korea because it seems okay for Big Brother to watch you all the time without boundries or limits.  Red.Bull.X, this is the typical stuff I would hear from some brainwashed, uneducated person who don't understand what the Constitution is and what it stands for.
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pug_ster

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2005, 01:45:00 PM »

QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 19 2005, 07:36 PM) View Post

how many requests were never submitted because they knew theyd be turned down, but then wiretaps installed anyway, off the record?

you say the patriot act means that big brother is watching, but big brother has been watching for as long as big brother has had eyes and ears, and before you say theres checks and balances in place, think about it, whos checking and balancing? the same government thats planting the wiretaps, they all just look the other way in the same direction

sure, you say nixon tried it and got in alot of trouble, but thats only because some reporters found out and went public, how often does this happen and no one knows about it?

maybe being raised by the daughter of a former nazi officer means my family was subject to more scrutiny, but believe me, the government has ALWAYS spied on people, with or without court issued warrants


Unfortunately, there's always an abuse of power in the US government.  Hey, but we need those reporters and the ACLU to point out the injustices and abuses.  I rather have them make those complaints than to have them silenced like many other communist countries.  And for Bush say that it was a 'shameful act' for New York Times to release this story is no different.  It seems that to you that Freedom of the Press is optional in the US.

Nixon only got 2 former CIA agents to do watergate and it got him in hot water.  Yet it seems okay to you for Bush to have an executive order to use the NSA to violate Americans' civil rights.
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red.bull.x

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2005, 02:36:00 PM »

You said;

You should consider living in Russia, China, or North Korea because it seems okay for Big Brother to watch you all the time without boundries or limits. Red.Bull.X, this is the typical stuff I would hear from some brainwashed, uneducated person who don't understand what the Constitution is and what it stands for.

pug_ster,

First off it's boundaries not boundries. Did you mean: boundaries? and it would be doesnt not don't. smile.gif

Furthermore, You obviously have way to much time on your hands. You should really consider doing a spell check before insulting someone and making claims that they are uneducated. You can't even spell. I'm not even going to respond to your comment about the Constitution your out of step. You can't back up anything you say with personal experience. Everything you claim has already been said before. Where is your personal experience? I can backup what I say, what about you?

pft... get a job.
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damam

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2005, 02:48:00 PM »

QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 19 2005, 07:36 AM) View Post

how many requests were never submitted because they knew theyd be turned down, but then wiretaps installed anyway, off the record?

Thats a good question to which i dont think we will ever know the answer too.  But the FISA courts have long been criticized for its willingness to give wiretaps and "sneak and peak" search warrants.

QUOTE
the government has ALWAYS spied on people, with or without court issued warrants

true - but that doesnt make it right

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pug_ster

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2005, 03:53:00 PM »

QUOTE(red.bull.x @ Dec 19 2005, 10:43 PM) View Post

pug_ster,

First off it's boundaries not boundries. Did you mean: boundaries? and it would be doesnt not don't. smile.gif

Furthermore, You obviously have way to much time on your hands. You should really consider doing a spell check before insulting someone and making claims that they are uneducated. You can't even spell. I'm not even going to respond to your comment about the Constitution your out of step. You can't back up anything you say with personal experience. Everything you claim has already been said before. Where is your personal experience? I can backup what I say, what about you?

pft... get a job.


Believe it or not I do have a job and I am working today.  You want to talk about my spelling or BS'ing about me being unpatriotic, that's your opinion.  I'm used to the fact that several people here who can't post anything relevant to the thread at hand so they have to get personal, like you.

I, like most Americans want those terrorists eradicated.  The Bush Administration can do it without spying on innocent Americans, have American's civil rights violated, or breaking laws.
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red.bull.x

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2005, 04:40:00 PM »

QUOTE
Believe it or not I do have a job and I am working today. You want to talk about my spelling or BS'ing about me being unpatriotic, that's your prerogative. I'm used to the fact that several people here who can't post anything relevant to the thread at hand so they have to get personal, like you.


pug_ster,

I never stated that you were 'unpatriotic'. You just did.

The men and woman working for NSA really do care about your privacy and believe it or not. They respect it,  because they are also American citizens.

When was the last time you voted?

I encourage you to keep stating your thoughts and voice your opinion. You do have some valid concerns but you still haven't backed it up with anything concrete. Prove to the rest of us that what you say is the truth. Give me some facts and not some shit you copied and pasted from searching news forums or articles off Reuters. Put some effort into it. Give me something. If you really care and believe what you have posted prove it to me.

Thanks.
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lordvader129

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2005, 04:41:00 PM »

QUOTE
Unfortunately, there's always an abuse of power in the US government. Hey, but we need those reporters and the ACLU to point out the injustices and abuses. I rather have them make those complaints than to have them silenced like many other communist countries. And for Bush say that it was a 'shameful act' for New York Times to release this story is no different. It seems that to you that Freedom of the Press is optional in the US.

heh, i was chief editor of my college newspaper for 3 semesters, and even in that "lofty" position of media power it was made clear to me that freedom of the press is as much of a myth as privacy is, you blame bush for taking away civil liberties, but you never really had them to begin with

QUOTE
Nixon only got 2 former CIA agents to do watergate and it got him in hot water. Yet it seems okay to you for Bush to have an executive order to use the NSA to violate Americans' civil rights.
like i said before, nixon only got in trouble because he got caught, other times its washed over, ignored, or not even noticed in the first place

QUOTE
true - but that doesnt make it right

i agree its not right, im just saying it happens, always has and most likely always will
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PhatIrishBastard

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2005, 09:23:00 PM »

QUOTE(red.bull.x @ Dec 19 2005, 02:03 PM) View Post

pug_ster,
You are quick to blame the US. Government and the Bush administration for everything. I want you to do me a favor 'go get you some'  then come back here and bitch about your freedom and privacy being violated. If your so concerned about it do something. Don't post your Anti-American propaganda on xbox-scene. Freedom costs a dear price. War is a dirty business nobody ever said it wasn't. Ask yourself something tonight while your playing around on your xbox or clicking away on your keyboard playing 'arm chair general'. Is there something I can do to change my future and the future of my children to insure their safety? To insure my own privacy and protect the freedom from which you obviously take for granted. Do you know what it's like to loose your friends in a war? To watch your best friend cough up blood while you are holding his intestines in your hands trying to keep them from spilling all over the place while bullets are flying over your head? Making a clap clap clap sound? The sound of an AK-47? Then a couple of mortor rounds go off? Do you know what it's like to lay in your hooch at night hearing car bombs go off outside the LSA where your living? You know what it's like reading letters from your wife telling you the electric company is cutting off the lights this month because the bill hasn't been paid while your off in some 3rd world country several thousand miles away from home getting shot at and in constant fear of loosing your life? Or the rent hasn't been paid and your family is facing eviction on the 1st of the month? Your wondering if your even going to make it that long? Have ya ever been powerless? NO i seriously doubt it. Have you ever herd insurgents running around outside ur hooch and you can hear the crunch crunch from the rocks outside... then you hear a door from one of the hooches getting kicked and some gunfire going off? Ever herd someone get on the radio late at night and say India 1 India 1 over. Yeah this is India 1 go ahead. Yeah Mike Bravo has reported insurgents thoroughing mattresses over the wire to jump the t-walls we need you to secure the LSA immediately. Or BOOM! we need everyone in a hard structure. Everyone needs to report to a hard structure... Its some scary shit... And yeah it's normal people just like you over there. So while you sit there and enjoy stuffing your face with food and playing your 'action packed' games remember something there are people risking there lives and making sacrifices 'freedoms' included to protect you from real threats 'terrorists living inside the USA'  planning attacks inside US soil.  And btw, NSA has a mission, you really think they are going to jeopardize there mission which is far more important than you will ever understand. Until you have made the same sacrifices, your just talking out of your ass.

Im all about freedom and privacy! but unless you have made some effort to insure it and protect it. How can you back up your statements? People who stand for nothing will fall for anything. Where are your principles? Your loyalty? Whos side are you on?


My roomy just went back to the mid east not because of the old glory BS you are spouting but simply for the money, You dont like what uncle sam is paying GO TO COLLEGE.

My dad, and his two older brothers served during Nam and Korea and they voluntered. The s.o.b.'s running this so called war, were to chicken to serve.

You wish to b*tch save it for the commander in chicken. I still havent got my discount gasoline.

They are using you. WAKE UP.......  Theyre kids are off somewhere doing coke like their fathers while Halliburton counts the money.. DUMMY

EDIT*
You are way to naive to be the AGE you are trying to insinuate that you are
EDIT*
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pug_ster

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Pentagon Spying On Americans After 9/11
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2005, 10:08:00 PM »

QUOTE(red.bull.x @ Dec 20 2005, 12:47 AM) View Post

pug_ster,

I never stated that you were 'unpatriotic'. You just did.


Gee, with that 200+ word Mantra about why "I should serve the military or I should shut up and say thank you" don't make me conclude that you say that I am unpatriotic, I don't know what to say.

QUOTE
The men and woman working for NSA really do care about your privacy and believe it or not. They respect it,  because they are also American citizens.

When was the last time you voted?


You really believe the men and women on the NSA really care for our privacy?  That's the best one I heard from you yet.  Believe it or not I voted last year and this year.

QUOTE
I encourage you to keep stating your thoughts and voice your opinion. You do have some valid concerns but you still haven't backed it up with anything concrete. Prove to the rest of us that what you say is the truth. Give me some facts and not some shit you copied and pasted from searching news forums or articles off Reuters. Put some effort into it. Give me something. If you really care and believe what you have posted prove it to me.


Have you watched the news pertaining this story?  All the major broadcast networks are talking about it.  In the Year of the End of the Year Conference today, Bush and the white house did not deny that the stories was not true, in fact Bush said that revealing this story was a 'shameful act.'  The republicans was mostly mum about it and the democrats came out blasting.  Do you think the press, the president, and the government are denying this story?  Either they are lying or you are brainwashed and believe whatever Bush says.  I already posted enough information and my opinions for everyone to see here.  And you want me to give you something?  Do me a favor and get a clue.
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