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BenJeremy

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Stolen Honor
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2004, 06:38:00 PM »

QUOTE (feflicker @ Oct 18 2004, 06:56 PM)

Let me just say this: Things I did 5 years ago are not indicitive of who I am know. So why would things that happened 30 years ago when these guys were kids... That is my feeling... (For example, I don't care that Bush was an alcoholic, a Coke-head, etc. I know that isn't who he is NOW).

This is true... but when there's a pattern stretching back 30 years, and even his own words today reinforce the image, I don't think "changed" is a word you can use.

Bush is reborn, pretty much a zealot, though Liberals are quick to call him a hypocrite, coming up with wild evidence (Kitty Kelly's fabrication about drug usage in Camp David, the infamous G-8 picture, which was likely near bear or somebody else's bottle sitting in front of the President at a social gathering) and implanting the idea, regardless of it's truth ("Got Coke" image), using repetition and funny images or skits. I haven't seen any proof that Bush is anything other than what he says, and that he has done anything other than what he's said he would do.

Kerry, on the other hand, has a track record stretching 20 years as a Senator, by which we can gauge his current mindset, as well as the statements he makes, even today. Most troublesome are his statements to undermine the Iraqi Interem Prime Minister, his  alienation of our entire coalition of allies, and his odd belief that France and Germany will somehow help bail us out of a situation that's more hype than substance when you look at the facts (the UN, Germany, Russia and France had no interest in ousting saddam or changing the status quo, thanks to the massively corrupt "Food for Oil" program Saddam was using to punish Iraqis and line his pockets).

Worse is that a guy who's practically a billionaire pays only 12.8% in taxes, while I'm paying something over 20%, and he's going to fix my tax situation? I already got my tax cut, but he wants to stop it.

...and still funnier, in a tragic way, is the idea of a pair of lawyers fixing the health care system, particularly when one is a personal injury lawyer who got rich helping malpractice insurance rates rise uncontrollably.

For 20 years, these guys have been doing all the things that have squeezed the life out of the vitality of the United States, but we are suddenly supposed to believe that they've somehow changed their stripes and will miraculously lead the country to "renewed" greatness? Pffttt...

This isn't the 60's, the 70's, the 80's or even the 90's.... world power is shifting, and there are those who would see it shift away from the United States, by whatever means. Kerry has always been a part of that movement, on the inside. I wouldn't trust him with my kid's halloween candy sack, let alone with our nation. Too much is at stake.

Think about it.... you imagine the theory I posted above sounds farfetched, but you would accept what Kerry has been blabbing about a draft if Bush stays in office? How about the story of the death of social security (same story told in 2000, as well, but never materialized)? Bush inherited a recession AND a massively ruinous attack on New York City and the central operations of world trade... moved on terrorist sponsoring countries, to answer those attacks with the one thing that scares the terrorists... immediate and unstoppable force. Through all of that, the economy is recovering, and will continue to do so. If Bush was as inept or evil as the Democrats claim, how could the economy be recovering?

Did you know that Afghanistan had elections last week, without any incidents of violence to mar them? Turnout was strong, and included women voters?

As bleak as the Democrats paint Iraq, do you know http://www.thetruthaboutiraq.org/' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>the truth about the situation? There will be upheavals, particularly as countries like Iran and Syria attempt to influence things there, but every day, their effort to upset democracy and freedom in Iraq continues to dwindle away. Everything Kerry has done and stated from a decade ago, until now, points to a man who has no desire to see this through to a democracy.

It's about perspective, experience, and action. Kerry seems to be lacking on all three counts, with a history that dates back 30 years. Yes, I think it matters. It mattered before Kerry used/spun his war service of 30 years ago as some sort of indication that he had leadership skills. It was a centerpiece of his campaign during the convention, used in commercials, until Swiftboat vets objected to their implied support when he used a photo of them.

What's more telling is that if you find what he did objectionable 30 years ago, remember one thing: he's never apologized for it. He's sidestepped the issue countless times, avoided answering the hard questions of the time, but he's never said "I'm Sorry" for all the obvious harm he's done. 30 years and still waiting.... even a changed man apologizes for the things he believes are wrong now.
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Ween311

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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2004, 06:45:00 PM »

Somebody posted this link in another thread.  It is about the Kerry discharge.

http://www.nysun.com/article/3107' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>NY Sun Article
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feflicker

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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2004, 06:58:00 PM »

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

I don't think it is wrong to question our "coalition". I don't think that talking tough about our coalition negates it. The point isn't that we aren't getting world support, we are (30 countries?). The point is that we don't have ENOUGH, especially when it comes to covering the costs in terms of dollars and lives. I don't think that is un-American. There is a difference between Kerry and Bush right now. BUSH IS PRESIDENT, Kerry isn't. Kerry is allowed more dissent imho...

BJ, you make more than 200k (you say Kerry is taking away your tax cut...)? Nice, good work, I wish I did  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

I can't speak for Kerry's record as a lawyer, but I have read some of Edwards book. I think the cases he took were very honorable. Someone has to stand up for the little guy, or little girl in many cases...

My stance on the economy is brighter than dems paint it. I do think Bush has done well, I just personally think Kerry could do better...

I don't think Kerry needs to apologize for anything he said after Vietnam. He was there, he has the right to voice his concerns. I have read transcripts of what he said, I honestly believe he was trying to help, not harm people... Again, my opinion. I think dissent is the most patriotic thing you can do (when you feel it necessary).

The most important reason we need to get rid of Bush (in my opinion) is to restore our image in the world. Worldwide polls show evidence of STRONG Kerry support. It is very important to our future that countries are willing to work with us and respect us. Remember, Perception IS reality  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />


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pug_ster

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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2004, 08:20:00 PM »

Let me say first feflicker that you are the first pro-Kerry that I know in the forum who can express his ideas.  And yes I agree what you said.

I might want to add that in Kerry's Senate Record, he has taken the tough issues, although Bush might differ with his opinion.   He was the person who broke the story about the Iran-Contra affair, took an investigation on BCCI, debunk the truth of Vietnam POW's and normalized relations with Vietnam.  He is not a ultraliberal and is willing to work with republicans while he was a senator.

That's the quality that I see in Kerry, a person who is willing to worth with the opposition on the tough issues to get his legistation passed.  Bush on the other hand, with his 'firm resolve' doesn't want to work with democrats and very few of his legistation are ever passed.  

Teresa paid little taxes because most of her income are tax free.  Her taxable income is 2.29 mil and she paid 627k in taxes.   I even put up the 'unbiased' drudgereport website for you.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm

BJ and for all your 'kind words' for all Liberals including Kerry and Edwards, you didn't mentioned Bush's take on the domestic issue, besides more tax cuts, which will cripple our economy in the long run.

Wow, I am surprised that there is such peace in Iraq.  The 2 people who work for this 'organization' http://www.thetruthaboutiraq.org/about.htm' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>here are wearing body armor so that they can protect their asses.  It is getting to a point where most of the news media just want to reports their lowlights of the day http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=170015&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>here.  Many US Generals and top leaders who work with US said that we need more troops in Iraq but Bush said there is no need for a draft (again Bush's 'Firm Resolve') because it would inconvience the political election year.  

Personally, it doesn't matter who wins the election, either we get a draft so that we can get more troops to get rid of the insurgents and stabilize Iraq or US can chicken out from Iraq.  Just that it will be more likely under Bush's watch at least there might be a chance Kerry might be able to call their allies for help.
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BenJeremy

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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2004, 08:43:00 PM »

QUOTE (feflicker @ Oct 18 2004, 08:01 PM)
I am impressed BJ. We need more people like you in this country, who scratch beneath the surface... Even if we don't agree on every detail or issue, at least we are somewhat informed!

This is what I believe:

I believe that it is obvious that the interim government in Iraq has to paint a rosy picture on the situation, regardless of reality. I also believe that Bush cannot come out and say "he was wrong" with the invasion of Iraq, even if he personally believes it. I think it is obvious that Karzai and the Iraqi PM are both "puppets" as Kerry was quoted to have said. They have to be. They owe everything to the U.S. right now, and we have then by the cajones http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

Well, that touches on a few things, but there are several points of view to examine here, but your assumptions about "painting things rosy" or "saying he was wrong" are two undermine your POV here. Alawi isn't painting things "all rosy" - but he, like most Iraqis, know that things will get better, but not if the forces attempting to destabilize the government are allowed to succeed. The lesson here to examine is Afghanistan in the early 90s... the Taliban strong-armed their way into power, a minority group with almost negligible strength took advantage of a volatile situation after the Soviets gave up. We, as a nation, lacked the will to support anything resembling a progressive government and the Wahabbists threw monetary support to the Taliban movement (not the whole of Mujhadeen, but a fraction of it) and they were able to take over. Iraq is certainly undersuch danger now, if the US pulls out. Iran, Syria and the Kurds would surely divide up the country and the whole region would fall into chaos. Our efforts to promote a progressive democracy in the region would be for NOTHING.

QUOTE


I don't think it is wrong to question our "coalition". I don't think that talking tough about our coalition negates it. The point isn't that we aren't getting world support, we are (30 countries?). The point is that we don't have ENOUGH, especially when it comes to covering the costs in terms of dollars and lives. I don't think that is un-American. There is a difference between Kerry and Bush right now. BUSH IS PRESIDENT, Kerry isn't. Kerry is allowed more dissent imho...


Yes, it was wrong. He's supposed to be acting Presidential, and that means being gracious and grateful for all the support others give our country. If he wasn't a candidate, fine... let him say what he wants, but at this point, he's burning his bridges before he comes to them - not very bright, in my opinion. Worse, it isn't really neccessary to belittle their contribution, is it? In the end, it's Kerry polarizing and pandering; it's a ploy to get one thing - not allies, but a throne. It give me the impression he doesn't care what he loses int he effort to gain one thing: The Oval Office, even if it's a burning wreck from his actions before he gets there.


QUOTE


BJ, you make more than 200k (you say Kerry is taking away your tax cut...)? Nice, good work, I wish I did  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />


Nope, not even close. I make less then many auto shop workers. Kerry's made it quite clear the tax cut is temporary in his opinion. We heard the litany of Clinton, lying about his intentions and who he considered "rich" - right down to the $35k mark. I know I've got more money in my pocket to help my family, thanks to several tax breaks aimed at me, a family man who doesn't break 6 figures at all. Why should I expect such releif to continue from a guy who's always voted in favor of higher taxes for the past 20 years? You think a habitual taxer like Kerry changes his spots overnight? I think it's more likely he'll say whatever it takes to win "his" throne.

QUOTE

I can't speak for Kerry's record as a lawyer, but I have read some of Edwards book. I think the cases he took were very honorable. Someone has to stand up for the little guy, or little girl in many cases...



c'mon... he got stinking RICH "defending the little guy" - I know how that works, too. My parents got royally ripped off by a lawyer and the system, hit by a drunk driver on New Year's Eve, heading to a relative's house, my Mom broke her neck. When the dust settled, she got a measly $8k out of a $100k settlement. Lawyers and their barrage of "experts" swallowed up the rest - and she still has problems to this day.


He also used junk science to influence juries and wrongfully win cases. Again, there's a pattern established, and he's on the wrong side of Tort Reform, something desperately needed to reign in lawyers, and get more for that "little guy"

QUOTE


My stance on the economy is brighter than dems paint it. I do think Bush has done well, I just personally think Kerry could do better...



How, exactly? By shutting down the border to H-1B Visas? Tearing up NAFTA? Forcing Canada to subsidize our drugs? Free enterprise doesn't run well on government regulation and tariffs. Encouraging US businesses to grow helps our economy -  which is the Republicans' approach. New businesses mean more jobs, and more income, which generates more tax revenues. A stronger economy depends on MORE business, not MORE regulation.

QUOTE

I don't think Kerry needs to apologize for anything he said after Vietnam. He was there, he has the right to voice his concerns. I have read transcripts of what he said, I honestly believe he was trying to help, not harm people... Again, my opinion. I think dissent is the most patriotic thing you can do (when you feel it necessary).


Jane Fonda did... and she's not even running for President. Ask a Vietnam Vet what they think about the way they were treated upon returning to the US. Kerry headed the movement that's largely responsible for that. His own testimony was used against POWs as they were tortured. His false accusations were a propoganda gold mine for the communists.


QUOTE


The most important reason we need to get rid of Bush (in my opinion) is to restore our image in the world. Worldwide polls show evidence of STRONG Kerry support. It is very important to our future that countries are willing to work with us and respect us. Remember, Perception IS reality  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />


No, we've never had the respect of France and Germany, and Russia DOES respect us, as does China, India, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Italy, and a whole slew of countries FAR MORE POWERFUL AND IMPORTANT in the worlkd arena than two faded and jaded ex-world powers. More on that after I eat dinner.... http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />
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67thRaptorBull

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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2004, 09:01:00 PM »

QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Oct 18 2004, 08:46 PM)


No, we've never had the respect of France and Germany, and Russia DOES respect us, as does China, India, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Italy, and a whole slew of countries FAR MORE POWERFUL AND IMPORTANT in the worlkd arena than two faded and jaded ex-world powers. More on that after I eat dinner.... http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

respect is one thing, and i agree, these countries still respect the US (but personally, i think some of them dont have full respect for bush, but thats ok)

but its cooperation, understanding and the willingness to work together (ie, the UN, but without the UN)

we obviously dont have any of that, or else we'd have alot more foreign troops in iraq right now, or at least alot more aid and funds
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feflicker

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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2004, 09:28:00 PM »

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='beerchug.gif' />

Let me first say that I don't think we should "pull out" of Iraq. No way. We are there, we have to finish the job. We are not quitters. Regardless of who is President, for the sake of everyone involved, I hope they wage the "second war" in Iraq quickly, and get this country secured.

I agree it does sound like Kerry is "belittling" our allies contributions at times, but someone has to belittle the job the president did of forming this so-called coalition. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the support we have is not appreciated, the point is that we *should have had a lot more*.

As you know, the tax relief has not been made permanent yet. I too benefited from the relief. I believe that it should be made permanent for middle income and below. (Bush wants it permanent for everyone). For those that make over $200,000, I think it should be repealed back to where it was before 9/11. I think that just makes sense, especially when we are looking at $120 Billion for this war (on the low side).

I know Edwards got rich, but he also made a lot of other people rich. I guess I have always liked it when someone takes down "the big guy". You know these companies screw families on a daily basis. Maybe if they didn't do that, they wouldn't be getting sued? I guess my opinion is that Edwards lawsuits were not "frivolous". Frivolous lawsuits should be stopped, we all agree on that...

As for the economy, I honestly think that a new president will relieve the main problem --> Consumer Confidence. I think free trade is the way to go, and I think allowing drugs from Canada is also the way to go. Just a difference of opinion I guess...

You and I both know that what Jane Fonda said/did was 100 times worse than Kerry. That bitch needed to apologize!  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/jester.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='jester.gif' />

When I speak about being respected in the world, I am not talking about foreign governments. We all know they will respect us for our power and money. I am talking about the people. The people who overwhelmingly support American citizens, but have no respect for our president. I think what Bush has done has been a lot worse than just making "unpopular decisions", as he put it. I think he has all but destroyed our reputation in the world when it comes to foreign policy, ask just about anyone on this board who does not live in the U.S.  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ph34r.gif' />

=================================================

Reading this it sounds like I absolutely hate Bush. That isn't the case, I respect a lot of what he did, especially post 9-11. I just don't agree with a lot of his policy.

- Stem Cells: Get over it already, let's research wherever we can!
- Abortion: Women should be able to choose.
- Taxes: Cuts should be repealed for wealthy.
- Supreme Court: I prefer liberal judges, not extreme conservatives.
- Religion: I think Bush is "too" religious for MY own good.
- Foreign Policy: I support the "Bush Doctrine", I just don't think we were diligent.
- Gay Rights: An amendment "protecting" marriage? Give me a break...
- Patriot Act: I think several parts of this need to be re-evaluated, re-wrote, etc.
- 911 Commission: We need to take more of their advice.
- Ann Coulter: She supports him, enough said!

The list goes on and on...   http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' />



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BenJeremy

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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2004, 09:32:00 PM »

I think it's simple enough to see why some countries (France, Germany, Russia) acted as they did when the US came calling to oust Saddam; the Food-for-Oil scam.   The line drawn was simply too harsh, and the reasonings too muddled to be anything else.

That said, in retrospect, the Russians are probably kicking themselves at this point for their role in it all (a recent poll showed a majority of Russians supported Bush), but diplomatic realities and their own struggles means we won't see them join any coalition right now (although we may see some involvement after Bush is re-elected.)

We find many of the hot spots in the world are the broken pieces of Europe's colonial age. We find the French have NEVER been our friends, at least in this century, and we'd have to ignore history to forget that Europe has had an axe to grind with the US since its birth. Democracy was a true revolution, and ideal that withstands every argument a citizen can throw against it, and while the monarchies and barons of Old Europe transformed their power base from leading armies to running businesses and influencing policies, they have never forgotten who's denied them their "right of rule", merely by existing.

Toss in a butt-load of anarchists, communists, and generally unruly rabble who are easily lead by propoganda, and you've got a force to be reckoned with.... add the legitmacy of a subverted organization like the UN, and maybe, just maybe, you can remake the world again. The problem with bringing back Fuedalism is that control is required. I'm beginning to think that's where the Islamists come in. Catholicism and Protestantism don't hold the weight they did, say, during the Thirty Years War, where kings and princes used the church to control the masses and steal land and treasures. Today the only alternative is the only bastion of zealous unquestioned religious authority - Islam. As a tool, the Saudis serve as a model for the future Emirs of Europe, controlling the population. Toss in the bonus the the long-hated "Jews" and kicking those upstarts across the pond, and you've got a plan, I'd guess.

Scary? It should be, but one thing  - ONE THING - can upset that potential track: the spread of Democracy in the Middle East, and the inevitable shift of Islam into the modern age as a tolerant and MODERATE religion (sort of like adding milk to strong coffee, or a hurricane slowing into a tropical depression).

Why else would the "old powers" of Europe wish to stand in the way of our plans for the region?

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BenJeremy

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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2004, 09:59:00 PM »

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /> ). I don't see the "wonderful speaker" I keep hearing about, nor do I see hime doing a single damn thing about getting more respect for our country or the office of the President Of The United States. I think Europe sees Kerry as a dupe... somebody easily moldable when you hold him accountable to a promise he's made in private, but flip-flopped to other parties on.

Dammit, worst of all the man is atrocious at sports. He's a disaster with a ball, gun, bike, or pair of skis, and seems to me like a snobby wine and cheese tasting elitist who thinks he knows better then anybody else what to do with our money and our country, no matter how badly he runs things into the ground.

I see Bush as the kind of guy who would argue with you over a football game (good naturedly) and know what he was talking about, while Kerry would be puzzled why the team leading a game wouldn't go for it on 4th and 3 at their own 30yd line (and couldn't get the name of the team right). Kerry is the guy who calls an exterminator to remove the dead possum on his driveway, while Bush is the guy who'd put on work gloves and get the job done himself. I may not always agree with Bush, but he's a hell of a lot more likeable, so long as you are not obsessed and prejudiced with ideas implanted in your head for the past 6 years by a bitter propoganda machine.






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feflicker

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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2004, 10:03:00 PM »

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

It will certainly be interesting to look back on this in 10/20/30 years. That will be the true test.

Back on topic, "Stolen Honor" is part of the RNC Mind Machine  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/jester.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='jester.gif' />



EDIT: (contd)

I don't think Kerry would withdraw prematurely for one second. We can't afford to do that, it is too risky. I don't think that is going to happen regardless of who wins...

Ha ha, he is bad at sports. He is all elbows  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/jester.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='jester.gif' />

I agree with you about Bush too, I think he would be more enjoyable to hang out with. I have watched lots of footage with him on the campaign trail (2000 and 2004). He has a good sense of humor, and is more down to earth. I just don't think that matters when you have the most formal job in the world...
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BenJeremy

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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2004, 10:18:00 PM »

QUOTE (feflicker @ Oct 18 2004, 11:06 PM)
You are right about that Food-For-Oil scam Saddam had going. He pretty much handed over the deeds to oil fields to prevent those countries from voting with America...

I also agree about democracy in Iraq being in our long-term best interest for the region.

"It isn't about the fact that we did it, it is about the way we did it".  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

It will certainly be interesting to look back on this in 10/20/30 years. That will be the true test.

Back on topic, "Stolen Honor" is part of the RNC Mind Machine  http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/jester.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='jester.gif' />

Kerry has enough enemies across the political spectrum.... plenty of vets hate him for what he's done; it doesn't have to be a Republican effort - just an ex-POW or any vet that got spit on after returning to the US.

Besides, considering Kerry has most of the news media (CBS still won't admit the obvious forgeries are forgeries and flogs anti-Bush stories every week), the comedy shows and a lot of the entertainment industry cranked up in anti-Bush fervor (Sundance channel has an 80-hour Bush Hate-a-thon scheduled).

Let's face it, we've been bombarded by anti-Bush messages in every medium known to man since he was elected President. If two hours of truth can tip the balance from Kerry to Bush (who endured 4 years of criticism, both real and imagined, as well as a TON of slander and satire taken at face value as truth), then honestly, what does that say about Kerry, anyway?

How big of a library of lies (in addition to the truth) has been leveled at Bush in the last 4 years (on free TV, cable, premium, etc...)? Even that short-lived series about Bush on Comedy Central more than makes up for two little hours of truthful documentary on Kerry, don't you think?

Why is scrutiny a bad thing, if Kerry is such a wonderful person?
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feflicker

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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2004, 11:24:00 PM »

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

You don't think the "bombardment" of Bush has anything to do with his performance? I will agree that the media has been tough on him, but I think rightfully so *most of the time*.

I think scrutiny and dissent are both extremely healthy. As a citizen, I want to know as much as possible before deciding on issues. I don't mind hearing every angle, it makes my final stance that much stronger.

Sometimes after learning more, studying an issue, hearing opposing viewpoints, as time passes and the world changes - I change my mind on things. Some may call that a "flip-flop", I call it common sense http://forums.xbox-scene.com/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />
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brandogg

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Stolen Honor
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2004, 11:28:00 PM »

Has anyone read the polls among the military and their families? This was shown on MSNBC, maybe on Foxnews I believe (can't find the link, it was shown on the net 2 days ago), that about 71% of the military and their families support Bush for reelection. Many of them do think their duty has been stretched out, but they still would rather have Bush as president, by far. Undecided voters should really take that into consideration. I'll post the link if I can find it...or anyone else can if they find it first.
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feflicker

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Stolen Honor
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2004, 11:35:00 PM »

QUOTE
that about 71% of the military and their families support Bush for reelection


I was wondering if that was going to come up...

My take on this: If your son, brother, etc. died in Iraq, or is fighting there right now, what would you rather believe:

a.) That they faught/died for nothing under a reckless President.

b.) That they faught/died for some great justified cause.

I think that plays a big part of this...

Also, I think that the RNC has done a good job of making people think that Kerry will not do the job in Iraq, and that would mean more casualties. I don't believe that, but I think that message has been successful for Bush.
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pug_ster

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Stolen Honor
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2004, 11:44:00 PM »

QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Oct 19 2004, 04:21 AM)
Kerry has enough enemies across the political spectrum.... plenty of vets hate him for what he's done; it doesn't have to be a Republican effort - just an ex-POW or any vet that got spit on after returning to the US.

Besides, considering Kerry has most of the news media (CBS still won't admit the obvious forgeries are forgeries and flogs anti-Bush stories every week), the comedy shows and a lot of the entertainment industry cranked up in anti-Bush fervor (Sundance channel has an 80-hour Bush Hate-a-thon scheduled).

Let's face it, we've been bombarded by anti-Bush messages in every medium known to man since he was elected President. If two hours of truth can tip the balance from Kerry to Bush (who endured 4 years of criticism, both real and imagined, as well as a TON of slander and satire taken at face value as truth), then honestly, what does that say about Kerry, anyway?

How big of a library of lies (in addition to the truth) has been leveled at Bush in the last 4 years (on free TV, cable, premium, etc...)? Even that short-lived series about Bush on Comedy Central more than makes up for two little hours of truthful documentary on Kerry, don't you think?

Why is scrutiny a bad thing, if Kerry is such a wonderful person?

Kerry didn't go on for 20 years in the senate without coming out with a laundry list of political riff-raff.  3 out of last 4 presidents are governors of individual states, not from senate or house.  Thus these candidates has little controversy and it is kind of harder to demean them (even slick Bill) and has a good resume of being a head figure of their state.

My main peeve is why are they airing that film in less than 2 weeks before a election in free tv.  Could've done it a few months ago along with Swiftvets for Lies BS.  

Personally, Kerry is not the best man for Democratic candidate, someone more unkown like Wesley Clark.  The person who can beat Bush at his game as being a commander in chief.
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