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[jesusphreak]

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"The purpose of The Watchtower is to exalt Jehovah God as Sovereign Lord of the universe. It keeps watch on world events as these fulfill Bible prophecy. It comforts all peoples with the good news that God's Kingdom will soon destroy those who oppress their fellowmen and that it will turn the earth into a paradise. It encourages faith in God's now-reigning King, Jesus Christ, whose shed blood opens the way for mankind to gain eternal life. The Watchtower, published by Jehovah's' Witnesses continuously since 1879, is nonpolitical. It adheres to the Bible as its authority." That is stated in every Watchtower on the second page!

Maybe you should read what I said earlier. The Watchtower does claim itself as the prophet and proper handler of God.

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The Watchtower has a average printing of 25,618,000 each issue and thats semimonthly ( that means two issues a month if you didn't know what that meant), thats in 148+ languages, in over 230 lands. WE are the only organization that is doing what is said a Matthew 24:14: "And this good news will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations;"

I still don't have any idea where you are getting this from. Christian missionaries are all over the world, and the Bible is the most translated book in the world. There are Christain missionaries in the Arctic, the Sahara, and anywhere else you could think of translating and preaching the word of God to other people.

I have no idea where you are getting this think about "being the only organization", because that is blatantly false.

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Are the people in your religion, by the way you still haven t said what that is, in line with each other in what they believe? Also every one of us has a part at our meetings and in going door to door, does everybody in you church do that?

Yes. The interesting thing is, the "religion" you speak of my faith as has billions of people across the world who believe it, and they all have the same basic beliefs and ideas of who Jesus Christ is. The difference here is, we aren't all led by a single organization, yet they all believe the same.

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You should really get your facts strait about us before you go on the Internet and make yourself an idiot! Oh and for doing what you say your doing in dallas you sher do spend alot of time on here!

I think that the people of South Dallas need Jesus CHrist just as much as the people of the Internet do...


In the love of Christ, jesusphreak...

[SmallBusinessGuy]

Man how could you forget about Jedi (or does this only pertain to tax exempt religions)? Speaking of which, I missed you at the convention this year Zero , your princess leia get-up was so hot last year, I'd hit it.

[krustytheclown]

QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 8 2004, 11:01 PM)

Yes. The interesting thing is, the "religion" you speak of my faith as has billions of people across the world who believe it, and they all have the same basic beliefs and ideas of who Jesus Christ is. The difference here is, we aren't all led by a single organization, yet they all believe the same.

Wait, are you saying that all of christianitys different religions believe the same? Are you nuts? You're saying that all christians belive in the rapture, the trinity, and hellfire?

You ask any 2 so called christians on what they believe, and you will get two completley different answers. The reason why there are so many different denominations of christianity is so that you can claim to be a christian, but at the same time, you would have a lot different beliefs than a baptist or catholic.

BTW, You still haven't answered my question. What denomination are you?

[rms2001]

jesusphreak, you have no idea how wrong you really are do you?
I did read your last posts and I will say it again, it seems your version of the Bible is the one that is corrupted. In your mile long post, you never used God's name Jehovah once. And you have the balls to call my Bible translation corrupted?

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Is all of my thinking really apostate?

In a word, YES.

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I have no idea where you are getting this think about "being the only organization", because that is blatantly false.

He is correct in what he said. Between the Witnesses and the rest of Christendom, we are the only organization who is preaching the good news as a whole. Individuals may be doing it here and there, but they don’t have training or the correct info to be preaching. And you can’t really count the Mormons b/c well, they don’t even use the Bible.

And you have still not replied to my last post on Hell. Found Here
Did you finally come to terms with your self and emit the Witnesses were right and was your faith hurt so much it didn’t vindicate a reply?








On to more important things.
Mitch I’m in Arizona (if my avatar didn’t give it away   ). All though I’ll trade you any time, I love WA. I have family on the San Juan Islands and its just beautiful. Use to live in Oregon and I miss the rain and all the trees.  

[melon]

This is why you are all retarded.

[jesusphreak]

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You do know that the Bible is a collection of books that was not assembled until the late 1400's? The book of revelations is one of the many epistles (books) written by apostles. This one was written by John, and was not even the last epistle written chronologically. John was referring only to the book of revelations, not the bible as a whole; it was not even compiled at the time. And besides, i have read the Book of Mormon, and doctrinally it doesn't contradict or add to the bible in any way.

Foehammer...

If you believe that, you are quite wrong. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD was the official time that the canon (all 66 books of the Bible that modern day protestant use) was set. It was not set 1400 ad. You should read up on the council of Nicea.

And, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but if this "thorough study" that you have done on the LDS faith is as "thorough" as what you said just brought up, how do you really believe what you do?

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He (jesusfreak) doesn't believe that the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses are Christians, because neither believe in the trinity; that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all the same personage. It's rather quite funny that his definition of a Christian is based on a bunch of man made rules and interpretation of the Bible of what a Christian is. I consider a Christian to be anyone who believes in Christ, that He is the literal Son of God, and follows His teaching through word and DEED.

I find it ironic that both JWs and Mormons believe nearly the same on this...

I don't disagree with you that a Christian follows God's teachings throught word and DEED....but I don't think you need your deeds to get you into heaven (or the third level of it as Mormons believe).

Foehammer, I find it interesting that you are popping up here again, when I sat down with my friend for about 45 minutes and typed you out a post rebuking with sources and facts what you had been writing earlier....

You completely failed to answer any of it. What's the deal? I really don't feel like you could dispute what I said, considering every single thing was based on what Mormons they themselves believe. Why did you leave?

Anyway, this next part can apply to Mormons and JWs alike....

Remember when I asked you guys earlier if "Jehovah performed the greatest act of love"?

Remember your responses?:

"YES he has. John 3:16 “ For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” If that’s not the greatest act of love, than I don’t know what is.

This is the same thing Abraham did. Abraham was going sacrifice his son to Jehovah. Jehovah spared Isaac, but this showed the greatest act of love. The very same thing God did for us, sacrificed his Son so that we may have a hope of living for ever."

"Of course, Jehovah (God) let his son (his first creation) come to earth as human, and die a horrible death. The fact that Jehovah let his son, a perfect spirit being, die for us, is the absolute meaning of love. We didn't deserve that. But, Jehovah loves us so much, that he let son die for us. I know I repeated myself, I just wanted to emphasize that."

Is really that really the ultimate act of love? Christ says, "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends." - John 15:13

Notice, this is from the NWT!

According to Jesus, the greatest act of love is to give up your life, or your soul, for your friends....

Remember, the Bible says, "God is love"...

"And we ourselves have come to know and have believed the love that God has in our case. God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him." - 1 John 4:16 (again NWT)

So think about this. Christ told us that the greatest act of love was to give up our lives for our friends....and he did so. According to both JW and Mormon theology, God did not give up his life for his friends....Jesus did.

Has Jesus outdone God? Has Jesus actually performed the greatest act of love?

See, if Jesus is God...as I do believe, he has performed the greatest act of love for me. God has died for me...

But if Jesus isn't God, and is merely the first created one, as you do claim, then God hasn't performed the greatest act of love, but he has been outdone by his firstborn creation.

Is God love, or is he not?

In the LOVE of Christ....jesusphreak

[krustytheclown]

Maybe I just don't understand, but lets say Jesus is God. How does he resurect himself when he is dead?

[thomes08]

ok.... we only need one of these threads.  the top three are fucking religion threads (before i put this in all of them)

[Foe-hammer]

QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 11 2004, 05:19 AM)

Foehammer, I find it interesting that you are popping up here again, when I sat down with my friend for about 45 minutes and typed you out a post rebuking with sources and facts what you had been writing earlier.... You completely failed to answer any of it. What's the deal? I really don't feel like you could dispute what I said, considering every single thing was based on what Mormons they themselves believe. Why did you leave?

Why did i leave?  Because talking to you is as rewarding as talking to a wall.  It's just pointless arguing with you jesusfreak.  Even when i blatantly prove your accusations wrong, you totally dismiss your previous accusations while not even backing it up, and then move on to another half-ass issue.  It utterly amazes me how you deal with other people who are not of your faith; you tell them of all the things that are wrong with their religion and expect them to listen to what you have to say.  Seriously who are you kidding….only yourself obviously.  You breed contention jesusfreak.  Grow up.  

Just to make you feel better, i'll take another look at what you have said, and if i have time to waste i'll give a response.

EDIT:

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If you believe that, you are quite wrong. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD was the official time that the canon (all 66 books of the Bible that modern day protestant use) was set. It was not set 1400 ad. You should read up on the council of Nicea.

You are right, I was thinking of the King James transilation of the Bible.  The books of the New Testiment was first compiled, to what we pretty much now have today, in the early 4th century.  None the less, it doesn't effect what i was stating; that John was referring to the book of Revelations, and not the Bible as a whole.

[rms2001]

Steam, Water, and Ice.

If I have three balls of clay and I press them together into one ball then they become ONE but now it is impossible to retrieve the original three exactly as they were originally.

If I have three bricks and I stack them above each other then I can separate them, but I can not call the three bricks ONE brick.

By far, the most common analogy given for the "trinity" by the Church is that of the three forms of water, specifically, ice, liquid, and steam. They say, just as water is "one" but with three "states" or three "forms," so too is God Almighty one but with three states.On the face of it this appears to be quite a compelling argument.

If I have a cup of water which can become steam, liquid, or ice, then it is not possible for me to drink the "liquid" while the "ice" and "steam" remain inside the glass. It is not possible for the "liquid" to beseech the ice to save it from being drunk while the ice stayed a safe distance away and was not itself drunk. This is simple logic. In a similar manner, if God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all merely three "personalities" or three "states" for one being, namely God Almighty, then it is not possible for one "personality" of God to DIE while the other two remained a safe distance away unharmed by death (Mark 15:37, John 19:33, Romans 5:6,...etc.).

Some will then solve this dilemma, as seen in the previous section, by claiming that Jesus did not actually "die," rather, he simply shed his earthly "skin." His actual essence was not killed. In this case it is necessary to ask: where then is the great sacrifice? If one of us has five thousand coats, and he takes one off and throws it in the fire then puts on a different one and says: "I did this as an ultimate sacrifice for you," is this truly an ultimate sacrifice if he can simply create one thousand more earthly "skins" to inhabit in place of the one he shed? Does his taking off of his coat and putting on a new one after three days "atone" for the sins of all of the "inherently wicked and sinful mankind" from the beginning of time? "and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength" - Mark 12:30

There are many other situations in the Bible that contradict this analogy and the theory of "three" gods. For example:

Would it be logical to picture the "ice" form of a bucket of water praying to the "steam" form of itself (e.g. Luke 6:12). Further, did water start out as liquid and then decide to "beget" for itself another personality as "ice" and then add on a third personality as "steam"? Did God start out with one "personality" and then one day "beget" for Himself multiple personalities to keep Him company?. Does He usually speak to His other personalities and beseech them for salvation? (Matthew 27:46) Did He sacrifice one of His personalities to "save" mankind? Do some of His personalities have knowledge not available to others (Mark 13:32)? Are some of His "personalities" more powerful than others (John 14:28)? Are some of his personalities submissive to others (Luke 22:41-44)? Is this our mental picture of God? How will we answer Him on the day of judgment when He asks us about these claims we have made against Him?

Okay, I think the trinity theory has been busted, again
Any way, jesusfreak you bring out an interesting point about John 15:13. I know theres more to it than that, just escapes me at the moment. So even if God did not perform the greatest act of love and Jesus did, what dose that prove?



So, the Trinity, Hell, and the Witnesses being a cult have all been busted, next question please Alex.

[rms2001]

What he said ^

[thomes08]

ok... why do you come to people's doors and freak them out?  That's my only problem with the whole thing.  You can believe whatever you want but NEVER go to someone's home and try and put your beliefs on them.  It's just sick

thomes08

[jesusphreak]

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Okay, I think the trinity theory has been busted, again

I don't think so at all. I refuse to read either you or mitches arguements if they continue to be full page copies for the Watchtower website. Argue with your own words and I might believe that you aren't just taking their interpretation for everything....

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Any way, jesusfreak you bring out an interesting point about John 15:13. I know theres more to it than that, just escapes me at the moment. So even if God did not perform the greatest act of love and Jesus did, what dose that prove?

Jesus chose to make the ultimate sacrifice. In your version of it, God didn't. What does that mean to me? It seems to me that Jesus loves me more than God (Jehovah). Why are we worshipping God instead of Jesus again? He didn't love us enough to do it himself, but he substituted someone else for himself? Is that really love? Or is it cowardice?

In Christianity, God made the greatest sacrifice possible - have gave his infinite life. In JW or Mormon theology, he didn't....he just made one of his special creations do it....

Jesus seems to be outdoing God....

[jesusphreak]

rms, just because you post full pages of information that you copied off of some website, does not mean at all that those issues are busted or done with....

Let me ask you a major question, why did Jesus accept worship if he wasn't God?

[rms2001]

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Because talking to you is as rewarding as talking to a wall. It's just pointless arguing with you jesusfreak. Even when i blatantly prove your accusations wrong, you totally dismiss your previous accusations while not even backing it up, and then move on to another half-ass issue.

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I don't think so at all. I refuse to read either you or mitches arguements if they continue to be full page copies for the Watchtower website. Argue with your own words and I might believe that you aren't just taking their interpretation for everything....

Thats is your problem, you are picking things out of the Watchtower, twisting and sping its words to suite your need at the time. And BTW, I'm not getting then off a website.    All my copy and pasting from any of our publications is from this handy little CD I have.    But the steam, water, and ice post I did get off the web yes, but it still proves my point.

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Let me ask you a major question, why did Jesus accept worship if he wasn't God?

There is where the KJV of the Bible got it wrong. We note in the NWT of the Christian Greek Scriptures that in all these cases of Jesus’ receiving such attention on earth as a man this Greek verb is rendered, not as “worship” but as “do obeisance to." this Greek verb proskyne´o occurs many times in the Greek septuagint sersion of the Hebrew scriptures and there this verb is used toward men, such as Joseph. In these cases proskyne´o could not mean “worship” but merely bowing or doing obeisance to a person out of deep respect. So it must have been such outward show of respect that was paid to Jesus here on earth, because he was viewed as being God’s representative, servant and prophet, and as the Son of David who was to be the Messianic King.

So in essence, we were not worshiping Jesus we were mealy showing respect for him and his Father.



Going back to weather or not Jehovah preformed the greatest act of love.
Watchtower – 1976, Jan. 1/1 - “Try to Be Like Him” - JESUS CHRIST, “THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD”

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4 Remember this: After Adam’s fall Jehovah God was still very much interested in mankind, and he purposed to have human creatures fill this earth. However, God’s justice had to be satisfied, and so he provided a redeemer, or ransomer, for Adam’s offspring. The Scriptures inform us: “God loved the world [of mankind] so much that he gave his only-begotten Son [as a ransom], in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) What love! The Son of God made his appearance as a perfect human creature by birth through the virgin Mary. He was really the ‘second Adam’ or second perfect man on earth. (1 Cor. 15:45) He poured out his life and purchased the whole human family. Jesus Christ proved himself to be the ransomer for mankind, as it is stated: “The Son of man came . . . to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matt. 20:28) Christians understand that there is “one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.”—1 Tim. 2:5, 6. 5 We can say of this ‘second Adam,’ Jesus Christ, that he, too, was like his Father in heaven. (Heb. 1:3) “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Col. 1:15) Christians are invited to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing him. (Col. 1:10) So those who want to be like Jehovah God would be looking to Christ Jesus as their example so as to be walking in his footsteps. 6 While Jesus was made in the image of his Father in heaven, he never sought to be equal with God, for we read: “Christ Jesus, . . . although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.” (Phil. 2:5-8) So we see that Jesus Christ himself, fashioned as a perfect man, became obedient to everything that Jehovah God said he should do. Those who want to “become imitators of God” must walk according to the way Jesus walked, for Jesus said: “He that does not love me does not observe my words; and the word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me.” (John 14:24) Jesus was so much like his Father Jehovah God, so much in harmony with His righteous ways and life, that when he spoke, the listener would not be hearing something that Jesus was thinking up of his own imagination. Why? Because the Bible says: “The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these.”—John 5:19, 20. 7 Today we have in the Bible the record of this marvelous example of Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. For thirty-three and a half years as a human creature here upon the earth he proved himself to be like his Father in heaven. He certainly set a perfect example of one who was made in the image of God. Even though he was a human he truly was the Son of God, the ‘second Adam,’ who takes away the sin of the world.—John 1:29. 8 Christians today are admonished to put forth an extraordinary effort to be like Jehovah God, and there is no reason for a Christian to give up in trying. If a Christian today entertains earthly hopes and expects to live eternally after the thousand-year Messianic reign of Christ Jesus has ended, he will certainly have to reflect the image and likeness of God by then. Why? Well, because, when Christ Jesus turns everything over to the Father, truly everyone then alive on earth will be a son of God through Christ—as Jehovah said, “in our image, according to our likeness.” Jehovah’s purpose will have been carried out for the first human pair to “be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.”—Gen. 1:26-28; Rom. 8:20, 21.

Emphasis on John 5:19, 20 if you don’t fell like reading the quote.