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jesusphreak

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« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2004, 11:22:00 PM »

I just wanted to post this. This is a sermon I preached to the Dallas Life Foundation (a homeless shelter). It was really good to see people respond to it. Not for my sake, but because some of them really have seen a change in their lives. One guy in particular, his name was Don, is looking for a job, so if any of you wouldn't mind praying for him, it would be great.

For God so loved…

I’m sure most of you have heard a single verse in the Bible a million times. John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever shall believe in him shall not perish, but have eternal life”. Honestly, this verse doesn’t mean a whole lot to me. I’ve heard it over and over, and I’m sure you guys have, too.

What I want to know, really, is what this verse means when it says, “For God so loved…”. What is this love that God, a God who created and made everything would be willing, even desire to come down to earth and die for us?

In Luke 15, Jesus tells the story of a man and his two sons. When both sons are grown, the youngest tells his Father, “Give me my share of the inheritance”. Now, you’ve got to understand what this son is asking. He’s telling his Father, “I wish you were dead, I want my inheritance due to me upon your death, right now. What a slap in the face? I mean, he’s telling his Father, the one who gave him life and raised him, to roll over and die.  

Well, the Father does something you wouldn’t really expect. He doesn’t tell him no, he doesn’t lock him up, or beat him, he just says, “If that’s really what you want” and splits his estate between the two sons.

So, the younger son, having gotten his way with his Father, heads off to a foreign country and wastes all of his money on what the Bible calls, “wild living”. Now, we can only imagine what that means, but its pretty obvious that he wasn’t providing for a family. After awhile, he has nothing left. Nothing. And wouldn’t you know, just his luck, about this time, a famine hits the land and nobody has anything to eat. The son is forced to sell himself off feeding pigs just so he can survive. He’s busy feeding these pigs and watching them eat all of this slop, and the Bible says, “he longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating”. This man, who was so bold as to take his inheritance from his father, and so youthful and wealthy as to spend all of his inheritance in a foreign land is now at the point where he is desiring pig’s slop. After sitting there and thinking for awhile, he realizes, “The servant’s in my Father’s house have everything they need, and here I am, longing to just eat anything at all”. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to him. He decides to return home and tell his dad, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be your son; make me like one of your hired men”. So, he sets off home not expecting much than perhaps a little food and a life of service under his other brother.  

Well, the Bible says that “the Father saw his son a long way off, and was filled with compassion for him, ran to his son, threw his arms around him, and kissed him”.

The son, who was so bold as to leave his father a few years older has the humility to say those simple words, "Father, I’ve sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son, make me like one of your hired men”.

Does the Father accept his request like he had accepted that request only a few years before? Infact, he tells one of the servants, “Kill the fatted calf, put on his finger a ring and on his feet sandals, and give him the best robe, for this son of mine who was lost is now found, he was blind and can now see”.

How great is the Father’s love? Not only does he welcome the son back, but he celebrates with him and his entire house, even when the son tells him that he’s wasted everything. This is what we have to understand. We all are that son. We all have gone off and wasted what God has given us. Some of us actually have wasted everything of value we had on things that never could satisfy. Some of us have given our lives and our talents to things that really weren’t worth it. No matter what we’ve done exactly, we’ve all slapped God, our Father, in the face and said, “I wish you were dead. I want my inheritance.” We’ve all pursued our own ways. Yet even now, even when we’ve rejected and wasted everything that our Father gave to us, he’s not only waiting for us, he’s running towards us, seeing us from a far way off and longing to put his arms around us. He loves us that much. He loves us so much, that he being God of all of the universe, decided and even wanted to come down and die on a cross for us. This is what the Bible means when it says, “For God so loved”… In fact, the Bible says, “God’s love is shown in this; that while we were still yet sinners, Christ died for us”.  

He didn’t just wait around and tell us to find our way back home. He ran to us, and he died for us. That’s what makes what Jesus did so special. We don’t have to do anything special or be anything special for him to love us, he just does. He died on that cross to let us know that no matter what we’ve wasted, or who we’ve disappointed, or what we’ve done, that he has forgiven it all and is longing to just see us again. All he needs us to do is to start walking home like that prodigal son did, to say, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you, I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired men”.

But once we do that, does he make us like one of his hired men? No, he loves us, and he treats us like a favorite son. He gives us good things and gives us another chance at being who he raised us to be. All he wants us to do is to come home.
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Foe-hammer

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« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2004, 12:10:00 AM »

The story is known as the prodigal son.  A very good parable that Christ gives of a fathers unconditional love for his son.
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krustytheclown

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« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2004, 01:10:00 AM »

QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 5 2004, 11:36 PM)

That doesn't make any sense at all. Did you even read my post? The Watchtower Magazine (supposedly the prophet of God and the organization that guides all witnesses) started setting dates in the 1870s, early 1900s, and continued after 1914. How do they even validate that date?

.......

Where are you getting all these watchtower qoutes? Apostate Jehovah's witnesses sites or something? Or some other site that likes to twist the truth and make witnesses look like some crazy cult?

BTW, what religion are you?
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Foe-hammer

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« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2004, 12:04:00 PM »

QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 6 2004, 06:08 PM)
That's not all it is saying, though. Christ makes it very clear that it is a story about him, about our Father.

And hence why i termed it parable. wink.gif
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krustytheclown

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« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2004, 01:19:00 PM »

QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 6 2004, 12:08 PM)

That's not all it is saying, though. Christ makes it very clear that it is a story about him, about our Father.



They aren't some crazy cult?



Is this important?

Why can't you just answer my question, would that be too hard for you?

You're reasoning on witnesses being a cult is just retarded.
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AkumAPRIME

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« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2004, 01:33:00 PM »

This is my thread bastards, I wanted a poll and details on your faiths name, not your faiths and debate. Shit. Owtlaw, your posts have made the most sense to me. Thomes tossed some sense in here too, as usual. The trinity is described as seperate and the same simultaneously, from what I remember from when I was forced to goto church.

I know that the debate will rage on, but please at least include your religious preference, if you haven't already, taht's why I made this thing.

maybe Ill make two more with an expanded list of  denominations.

And I AM is a name if I want it to be. If I name my son I AM, huess what his name is...?!

I AM.

what else did I see in here that was just ridiculous? There were some other good posts too.

All religion having been a cult at one point or another, that all religions have and will continue to make mistakes...

Damn I'm falling into the debate hole.... Just list your religious preference.
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jesusphreak

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« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2004, 03:47:00 PM »

QUOTE
"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago..." The Watchtower, August 15, 1981.


I thought that this was an interesting quote straight from the Watchtower. Seems to really discourage independent thinking.
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rms2001

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« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2004, 04:55:00 PM »

Double post, sorry
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rms2001

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« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2004, 05:04:00 PM »

Think of this. First of all, they believe that Jesus Christ was the first thing that the Father created. This is false. This is not what CHristians believe nor teach.
This is not false, and I'm sorry if thats not what *Christians believe or teach*, they got it wrong.

The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: “In the beginning the Word [Gr., Lo´gos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god [“was divine,” AT; Mo; or “of divine being,” Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God.” Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Word’s being with God from “the beginning” must here refer to the beginning of Jehovah’s creative works. This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation,” “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, his firstborn Son.

That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, “I live because of the Father.” According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Joh 6:56, 57.

If the estimates of modern-day scientists as to the age of the physical universe are anywhere near correct, Jesus’ existence as a spirit creature began thousands of millions of years prior to the creation of the first human. (Compare Mic 5:2.) This firstborn spirit Son was used by his Father in the creation of all other things. (Joh 1:3; Col 1:16, 17) This would include the millions of other spirit sons of Jehovah God’s heavenly family (Da 7:9, 10; Re 5:11), as well as the physical universe and the creatures originally produced within it. Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created “through him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”—Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

Not only do they believe that Jesus was the first of created thing, they believe that CHrist on earth was only a perfect man, not God in the flesh.
That makes no since. If Jesus was the Son of God, how could God be him on earth?

QUOTE
Why do some Bible translations refer to Jesus as “God,” while others say he was “a god”?

Some translations render John 1:1 as saying: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Literally the Greek text reads: “In beginning was the word, and the word was toward the god, and god was the word.” The translator must supply capitals as needed in the language into which he translates the text. It is clearly proper to capitalize “God” in translating the phrase “the god,” since this must identify the Almighty God with whom the Word was. But the capitalizing of the word “god” in the second case does not have the same justification.

The New World Translation renders this text: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” True, there is no indefinite article (corresponding to “a” or “an”) in the original Greek text. But this does not mean one should not be used in translation, for Koine, or common Greek, had no indefinite article. Hence, throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures, translators are obliged to use the indefinite article or not according to their understanding of the meaning of the text. All English translations of those Scriptures do contain the indefinite article hundreds of times; yet most do not use it at John 1:1. Nevertheless, its use in the rendering of this text has sound basis.

First, it should be noted that the text itself shows that the Word was “with God,” hence could not be God, that is, be the Almighty God. (Note also vs 2, which would be unnecessary if vs 1 actually showed the Word to be God.) Additionally, the word for “god” (Gr., the•os´) in its second occurrence in the verse is significantly without the definite article “the” (Gr., ho). Regarding this fact, Ernst Haenchen, in a commentary on the Gospel of John (chapters 1-6), stated: “[the•os´] and [ho the•os´] (‘god, divine’ and ‘the God’) were not the same thing in this period. . . . In fact, for the . . . Evangelist, only the Father was ‘God’ ([ho the•os´]; cf. 17:3); ‘the Son’ was subordinate to him (cf. 14:28). But that is only hinted at in this passage because here the emphasis is on the proximity of the one to the other . . . . It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ . . . Thus, in both Philippians and John 1:1 it is not a matter of a dialectical relationship between two-in-one, but of a personal union of two entities.”—John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110.

After giving as a translation of John 1:1c “and divine (of the category divinity) was the Word,” Haenchen goes on to state: “In this instance, the verb ‘was’ ([en]) simply expresses predication. And the predicate noun must accordingly be more carefully observed: [the•os´] is not the same thing as [ho the•os´] (‘divine’ is not the same thing as ‘God’).” (pp. 110, 111) Elaborating on this point, Philip B. Harner brought out that the grammatical construction in John 1:1 involves an anarthrous predicate, that is, a predicate noun without the definite article “the,” preceding the verb, which construction is primarily qualitative in meaning and indicates that “the logos has the nature of theos.” He further stated: “In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [the•os´] cannot be regarded as definite.” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Other translators, also recognizing that the Greek term has qualitative force and describes the nature of the Word, therefore render the phrase: “the Word was divine.”—AT; Sd; compare Mo; see NW appendix, p. 1579.

The Hebrew Scriptures are consistently clear in showing that there is but one Almighty God, the Creator of all things and the Most High, whose name is Jehovah. (Ge 17:1; Isa 45:18; Ps 83:18) For that reason Moses could say to the nation of Israel: “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.” (De 6:4, 5) The Christian Greek Scriptures do not contradict this teaching that had been accepted and believed by God’s servants for thousands of years, but instead they support it. (Mr 12:29; Ro 3:29, 30; 1Co 8:6; Eph 4:4-6; 1Ti 2:5) Jesus Christ himself said, “The Father is greater than I am” and referred to the Father as his God, “the only true God.” (Joh 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12) On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; Joh 5:19; 8:42; 13:16) Even after Jesus’ ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.—1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.

These facts give solid support to a translation such as “the Word was a god” at John 1:1. The Word’s preeminent position among God’s creatures as the Firstborn, the one through whom God created all things, and as God’s Spokesman, gives real basis for his being called “a god” or mighty one. The Messianic prophecy at Isaiah 9:6 foretold that he would be called “Mighty God,” though not the Almighty God, and that he would be the “Eternal Father” of all those privileged to live as his subjects. The zeal of his own Father, “Jehovah of armies,” would accomplish this. (Isa 9:7) Certainly if God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil, is called a “god” (2Co 4:4) because of his dominance over men and demons (1Jo 5:19; Lu 11:14-18), then with far greater reason and propriety is God’s firstborn Son called “a god,” “the only-begotten god” as the most reliable manuscripts of John 1:18 call him.

When charged by opposers with ‘making himself a god,’ Jesus’ reply was: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Joh 10:31-37) Jesus there quoted from Psalm 82, in which human judges, whom God condemned for not executing justice, were called “gods.” (Ps 82:1, 2, 6, 7) Thus, Jesus showed the unreasonableness of charging him with blasphemy for stating that he was, not God, but God’s Son.

This charge of blasphemy arose as a result of Jesus’ having said: “I and the Father are one.” (Joh 10:30) That this did not mean that Jesus claimed to be the Father or to be God is evident from his reply, already partly considered. The oneness to which Jesus referred must be understood in harmony with the context of his statement. He was speaking of his works and his care of the “sheep” who would follow him. His works, as well as his words, demonstrated that there was unity, not disunity and disharmony, between him and his Father, a point his reply went on to emphasize. (Joh 10:25, 26, 37, 38; compare Joh 4:34; 5:30; 6:38-40; 8:16-18.) As regards his “sheep,” he and his Father were likewise at unity in their protecting such sheeplike ones and leading them to everlasting life. (Joh 10:27-29; compare Eze 34:23, 24.) Jesus’ prayer on behalf of the unity of all his disciples, including future ones, shows that the oneness, or union, between Jesus and his Father was not as to identity of person but as to purpose and action. In this way Jesus’ disciples could “all be one,” just as he and his Father are one.—Joh 17:20-23.

In harmony with this, Jesus, responding to a question by Thomas, said: “If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him,” and, in answer to a question from Philip, Jesus added: “He that has seen me has seen the Father also.” (Joh 14:5-9) Again, Jesus’ following explanation shows that this was so because he faithfully represented his Father, spoke the Father’s words, and did the Father’s works. (Joh 14:10, 11; compare Joh 12:28, 44-49.) It was on this same occasion, the night of his death, that Jesus said to these very disciples: “The Father is greater than I am.”—Joh 14:28.

The disciples ‘seeing’ the Father in Jesus can also be understood in the light of other Scriptural examples. Jacob, for instance, said to Esau: “I have seen your face as though seeing God’s face in that you received me with pleasure.” He said this because Esau’s reaction had been in harmony with Jacob’s prayer to God. (Ge 33:9-11; 32:9-12) After God’s interrogation of Job out of a windstorm had clarified that man’s understanding, Job said: “In hearsay I have heard about you, but now my own eye does see you.” (Job 38:1; 42:5; see also Jg 13:21, 22.) The ‘eyes of his heart’ had been enlightened. (Compare Eph 1:18.) That Jesus’ statement about seeing the Father was meant to be understood figuratively and not literally is evident from his own statement at John 6:45 as well as from the fact that John, long after Jesus’ death, wrote: “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”—Joh 1:18; 1Jo 4:12.


1) The Bible nevers says *only* Witnesses will go to heaven. But 144,000 that were chosen to go to heaven.
A limited number of men and women will be resurrected to life in Heaven. As kings and priests with Jesus, they will share in undoing all the effects of death that mankind inherited from the first man, Adam. Only 144,000 will go to Heaven as stated in the book of Revelation. Rev 14:1 says “And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion and with him the hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” Also backed up by, Rev 7:1

Rev 14:1 - This would be Jesus standing in Heaven with the selected 144,000 to co-rule paradise. Most of the people will be resurrected to a paradise earth. (Psalm 37:11, 29; Matt: 6:10)

2) Only those who believe explicitly what the Watchtower teaches will be going to heaven.
Where are you getting these twisted ideas?

3) Their overseeing organization (the Watchtower) is the only channel of God's truth. (differing in Christianity in that every single man, woman, child, and even outside forces can be a channel of God's truth)...
Not sure where your going with this one. Maybe if you elaborated more, some one mite be able to give your a striate answer.

4) good works are necessary for salvation
Ya, that makes alot of since. Of couse if you do what God has commanded you live in paradise. If you screw around and blow off what God wants us to do, what would make you think you have hope for "salvation"?

Outwardly similar to another religion without having it's genuine qualities.
Well maybe we have it right and every one else is a "cult". How can a group of people who up hold the Bible's teachings be considered a "cult"?

This is why I call it a cult. FOr the main reason being is that it distorts who Jesus Christ is (God in the flesh) and how man may be saved (not by God works but by trusting in God alone)
No, Witness do not distort who Jesus is. We teach the truth, that he was HIS SON.




krusty, any of this count as service time?  wink.gif
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krustytheclown

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« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2004, 08:26:00 PM »

It should man, but with people like this jesusphreak guy, there is just no reasoning.

They believe what they want to believe. No what the bibles tells us.

BTW, this fact that you are disagreeing with good works are necessary for salvation, is without a doubt, the single stupidest thing I have ever heard. Why should we be given the gift of everlasting life if we don't listen and do what god tells us?
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rms2001

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« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2004, 10:16:00 PM »

QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 6 2004, 04:50 PM)

I thought that this was an interesting quote straight from the Watchtower. Seems to really discourage independent thinking.

You should have read the whole thing, not just in part.

Watchtower - August 15th, 1981 – Serving Jehovah “Shoulder to Shoulder”
The paragraph you had quoted in part was #14

QUOTE
Serving Jehovah “Shoulder to Shoulder”

“I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.”—Zeph. 3:9.

JEHOVAH’S word of prophecy always comes unerringly to fulfillment. He himself tells us: “So my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.” (Isa. 55:11) It has been just that way with so many of the details of Zephaniah’s great prophecy.

2 For example, Zephaniah records, in turn, Jehovah’s utterances of doom against the cities of Philistia, the nation of Cherethites, the land of the Philistines, and Moab and Ammon. (Zeph. 2:4-8) All those prophecies had remarkable fulfillment during the years and centuries that followed. Where, today, is the nation of Philistia, with its cities, and where are the dependent Cherethites? They are nonexistent. What of Moab and Ammon? The prophecy says:

“‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, ‘Moab herself will become just like Sodom, and the sons of Ammon like Gomorrah, a place possessed by nettles, and a salt pit, and a desolate waste, even to time indefinite.’” (Zeph. 2:9)

If you travel today through the Transjordan territories where the proud nations of Moab and Ammon once flourished, what do you find? Desolation—even as Jehovah foretold! History shows that Ethiopia also, along with Egypt, suffered at the hands of the Babylonian invaders.—Zeph. 2:12.

“AN OBJECT OF ASTONISHMENT”

3 Most astonishing is the fulfillment of Jehovah’s utterance concerning Assyria and Nineveh. Zephaniah prophesied when Assyria’s proud capital, Nineveh, was in the heyday of its glory, at least 15 years before that nation was toppled from its position as the second world power of Bible history. Whoever could have imagined such a thing? But Jehovah was against that nationalistic “city of bloodshed.” (Nah. 3:1, 5) Through Zephaniah he spoke of settling accounts with her, saying:

“He will stretch out his hand toward the north, and he will destroy Assyria. And he will make Nineveh a desolate waste, a waterless region like the wilderness. . . . This is the exultant city that was sitting in security, that was saying in her heart, ‘I am, and there is nobody else.’ O how she has become an object of astonishment, a place for the wild animals to lie stretched out! Everyone passing along by her will whistle; he will wag his hand.”—Zeph. 2:13-15.

4 ‘Impossible!’ people of that day would have said. Yet that same generation lived to see it! In 633 B.C.E. Nabopolassar of Babylon and Cyaxares the Mede besieged and captured Nineveh. The Babylonian Chronicles tell us: “The great spoil of the city and temple they carried off and [turned] the city into a ruin-mound.” So complete was the devastation of Nineveh that even its location became unknown for centuries. In the 1800’s it was again identified, and the famous library of Ashurbanipal II was unearthed. But to this day the area remains a barren waste where flocks occasionally rest. How accurate the fulfillments of Jehovah’s word of prophecy!

5 However, most importantly, that prophetic record carries a message for today. It serves as “a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.” (1 Cor. 10:11, 12; Rom. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17) It encourages us to avoid the pride, the indulgent pleasure-seeking, the materialistic thinking and violent dispositions that brought God’s judgment upon those nations. Also, we should remember that those prophecies are very much alive today, and that their climactic fulfillment hastens on. It is not for a mere historical record that Jehovah, the living God, has preserved them down to this day. Those ancient nations have their modern-day counterpart, particularly in the Assyria-like politico-military powers that boast in their armed might. Jehovah will assuredly take vengeance against all such opposers of his kingdom.—Nah. 1:2; Zeph. 1:2, 9.

“WOE TO . . . THE OPPRESSIVE CITY!”

6 Modern-day totalitarian, authoritarian governments closely parallel cruel Nineveh of the mighty Assyrian Empire. Yet Jehovah makes it plain that there is a part of the present world system of things that is even more reprehensible in his sight. What is that?

7 It is that part of the world that claims to be God’s own people, even as Judah and Jerusalem made that claim in Zephaniah’s day. It professes to be “Christian,” and is known generally as “Christendom.” But its clergy have apostatized from the pure teachings of God’s Word, the Bible, and its nations and peoples have fallen from following the fine moral standards set out in that Word. Hence, Zephaniah himself now speaks out against that God-dishonoring “city,” saying:

“Woe to her that is rebelling and polluting herself, the oppressive city! She did not listen to a voice; she did not accept discipline. In Jehovah she did not trust. To her God she did not draw near.”

Jehovah has sent his witnesses throughout Christendom, to its cities and villages, from house to house. “Morning by morning,” they have declared his judgments. “At daylight,” his righteous requirements have been made clear. But Christendom’s leaders and clergy have been “insolent” and have ‘known no shame’ in their opposition to these messengers of the righteous Jehovah and his kingdom.—Zeph. 3:1-5.

8 In support of his faithful prophet, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah now takes up the pronouncement of doom, enlarging it to include all the nations, and climaxing it with these words:

“‘Therefore keep yourselves in expectation of me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘till the day of my rising up to the booty, for my judicial decision is to gather nations, for me to collect together kingdoms, in order to pour out upon them my denunciation, all my burning anger; for by the fire of my zeal all the earth will be devoured.’”—Zeph. 3:6-8.

9 So the execution of Jehovah’s judgment does not stop at the desolating of Christendom, whose religion must perish along with the entire world empire of false religion, described in the Bible as “Babylon the Great.” (Rev. 18:2-4) The day of his “burning anger” and of “the fire of [his] zeal” will remove all wickedness from the earth. (See also Isaiah 34:2-8; Jeremiah 25:32, 33.) How grateful we should be that this greatest tribulation of all time will be the last, according to Jesus’ own testimony at Matthew 24:21! It will have accomplished Jehovah’s purpose in “causing an outright extermination,” like that of ancient Nineveh. “Distress will not rise up a second time.”—Nah. 1:9; Dan. 12:1; Rev. 19:11-21.

THE WAY OF ESCAPE

10 Is there a way of survival during this world calamity? Why, yes! In the very next words of the prophecy, Jehovah God himself shows what that way is. He says:

“For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.” (Zeph. 3:9)

Whichever of the hundreds of national tongues they may use, the worldly nations make propaganda in a “language” that is detestable to Jehovah. Instead of God’s kingdom, they exalt their own nationalistic programs, trying to use a divided U.N. for selfish political ends. They reject Jehovah’s kingdom by Christ Jesus.

11 What, then, is this change to a “pure language”? It is a turning to the message of truth, the refreshing “good news,” the “pattern of healthful words,” that speaks in praise of Jehovah and his righteous purposes by Christ Jesus. (2 Tim. 1:13) This “pure language” unifies them. And it testifies that, in the epoch-marking year 1914, “the kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” (Rev. 11:15) Taking this message upon their lips, true Christians worldwide “call upon the name of Jehovah” in dedication, harmoniously rendering him “sacred service.” As the only truly united people on earth, they go to the homes of the people, heralding forth the “good news” of Jehovah’s established kingdom. Thus they serve Jehovah “shoulder to shoulder.” (Matt. 24:14; Rom. 12:1) Are you one who has thus separated yourself from the world, to serve God zealously in dedication to Him? It is by thus working along with Jehovah’s organized people that you may “get away safe.”—Joel 2:32; see also Hosea 14:1, 2; Hebrews 13:15.

12 The “change to a pure language” has been hard for some to make. It is not easy to come out of the world, with its easygoing, permissive ways, and to make the sacrifices necessary for ‘calling upon the name of Jehovah.’ It has required our getting rid of wrong thoughts, bad habits and self-seeking, loose ways of life, in order to conform to the clean, worthwhile standards of God’s own people. (Eph. 4:17, 18, 29; 1 Pet. 4:3) It has required our giving proper recognition to the one organization that Jehovah is using in the earth today, and this by our associating with the “faithful and discreet slave.” It has required meekness, in our “carefully examining” God’s Word with the aid of that ‘slave’s’ publications, in order to fortify our faith.—Matt. 24:45; Acts 17:11.

13 In serving Jehovah “shoulder to shoulder,” we need, as Zephaniah so often emphasizes, to cultivate the quality of meekness. When we make mistakes, as all imperfect humans do, let us be ready to acknowledge them, even as the “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of imperfect fleshly men, has had to make corrections. However, let us never be critical of the grand body of truth that Jehovah has built up among his united people over the past 100 years, and which, by correction and adjustment, has come to shine ever more brightly on “the path of the righteous ones.”—Prov. 4:18.

14 From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. They do not want to serve “shoulder to shoulder” with the worldwide brotherhood. (Compare Ephesians 2:19-22.) Rather, they present a “stubborn shoulder” to Jehovah’s words. (Zech. 7:11, 12) Reviling the pattern of the “pure language” that Jehovah has so graciously taught his people over the past century, these haughty ones try to draw the “sheep” away from the one international “flock” that Jesus has gathered in the earth. (John 10:7-10, 16) They try to sow doubts and to separate unsuspecting ones from the bounteous “table” of spiritual food spread at the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses, where truly there is ‘nothing lacking.’ (Ps. 23:1-6) They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago, and some have even returned to celebrating Christendom’s festivals again, such as the Roman Saturnalia of December 25! Jesus and his apostles warned against such lawless ones.—Matt. 24:11-13; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Pet. 2:1, 22.

15 Through his prophet Zephaniah, Jehovah tells His people how He will dispose of those who shamelessly try to sow discord in His earthly organization, saying:

“I shall remove from the midst of you your haughtily exultant ones; and you will never again be haughty in my holy mountain.”

In happy contrast, Jehovah says:

“I shall certainly let remain in the midst of you a people humble and lowly, and they will actually take refuge in the name of Jehovah.” (Zeph. 3:11, 12)

Yes, these are the meek ones, who work “shoulder to shoulder” as they engage in “the holy work of the good news.” (Rom. 15:15, 16) They are not too proud to do the lowly work of calling from house to house after the pattern that Jesus’ disciples learned from the Master. (Matt. 10:5-13; Luke 9:2-6; Acts 5:42) Taking refuge in Jehovah’s name, they proclaim that glorious name and his purpose to vindicate it by the triumphant kingdom of his Christ. (Ezek. 38:23; Dan. 2:44) As Jehovah’s people serve and live according to his righteousness, they are confident that “there will be no one making them tremble.” (Zeph. 3:13) They enjoy true peace of mind!

A TIME FOR JOYFUL ACTIVITY

16 Zephaniah himself is made glad by such assurance from Jehovah, so that he calls on God’s people saying:

“Joyfully cry out, O daughter of Zion! Break out in cheers, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! Jehovah has removed the judgments upon you. He has turned away your enemy. The king of Israel, Jehovah, is in the midst of you. You will fear calamity no more.” (Zeph. 3:14, 15)

Since 1919, when they were released from spiritual captivity to Babylon the Great, the anointed witnesses of Jehovah have served him “shoulder to shoulder” in giving joyful public testimony. Jehovah has judged and approved these children of the heavenly Jerusalem. (Gal. 4:26; 1 Pet. 4:17) Prisons and slave labor camps have proved powerless to draw them again into spiritual bondage. Their rejoicing is now shared by a “great crowd” of companion Witnesses, identified since 1935 as part of the Lord’s “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Rev. 7:9, 10.

17 Directly to his anointed ones, representing the heavenly Zion, and through them to their fellow workers of the “great crowd,” Jehovah himself now makes appeal, saying:

“Do not be afraid, O Zion. May your hands not drop down.” (Zeph. 3:16)

As terrible as crime and violence are today, as fearsome as the challenges of the nuclear age may become, as cruel as may be the persecutions yet to come upon Jehovah’s Witnesses, their very intimacy with Jehovah and trust in their God will carry them through. Having put our hands to the plow of “sacred service,” may we never look back at the things behind and cease plowing forward, “shoulder to shoulder”! (Luke 9:62; Rev. 7:15) For now the prophecy gives this further divine assurance:

“Jehovah your God is in the midst of you. As a mighty One, he will save. He will exult over you with rejoicing. He will become silent in his love. He will be joyful over you with happy cries.” (Zeph. 3:17)

Jehovah is “silent” in finding ease and refreshment by expressing love to his recovered, restored people, and great is his joy and exultation over their integrity and zeal in his service. In these “last days” we should feel very close to our living God, Jehovah, as we unitedly apply shoulders to his service.—2 Tim. 3:1.

18 Since 1919, it has been a grand day of restoration for all of God’s people. As faithful witnesses they have continued to preach with missionary zeal, so that Jehovah’s organization has expanded to the very ends of the earth. (Rom. 10:10, 18) It has indeed been a time for bringing in God’s people, collecting them together. And for what purpose? Jehovah himself answers:

“I shall make you people to be a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth.” (Zeph. 3:20)

Happily, the anointed remnant of God’s people have become “a name and a praise” in holding high the precious name of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, and now many of those “peoples of the earth” are working with them, “shoulder to shoulder,” in making known his Kingdom purposes. Our change to speaking the “pure language,” and our continuing to herald forth that “good news of the kingdom,” will yet help thousands more to “call upon the name of Jehovah,” that these, too, may be ‘hidden of Jehovah’ during the day of his anger, and boldly come forth to praise him throughout all eternity.


There is no discouragement of independent thinking any where in this. It just states that some will fall away from the truth b/c of Satan.
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rms2001

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« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2004, 12:15:00 AM »

Krusty is right, there is no reasoning with you jesusphreak. You’re basing all of your info off apostate thinking and off their sites and their twisted ideas of the truth.

QUOTE
He didn't begin his life here on earth he didn't begin it at all. He is/was God.


IS he or WAS he God? Make up your mind. It seems you don't know or understand what you believe in, or in what you are saying for that matter.

QUOTE
Every sinlge one of your arguements is based off of a false and corrupted version of Scripture. How can a bucket full of holes hold water?

I don't know whos Bible you use, and from what I can tell, your Bible is the one that is corrupted.

The NWT was just revised back in 1984, and out of six and half million (or so) Witnesses you don’t think at least one of them has a degree in Greek or Hebrew? A friend of mine is 17 years old, he speaks Hebrew, and speaks it well. It doesn’t take a degree in some thing to translate. I can speak German, but I don’t have a degree in German, so dose that mean I’m not qualified to translate a German book, or even a restaurant menu?

As for your twisted views on John 1:1, 2 - 1 Timothy 2:5, puts a slightly different angel on it, see if this makes more since to you. 1 Timothy 2:5;  “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,” Now dose that not say there are more than one being there? There is two, God and his Son. The KJV says the same thing.

Now on that same note, lets take a look at Genesis. Genesis 1:26; “And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness …” To me, it seems there is more than just God sitting up there in the Heavens (at least to me and 6.5million other people). God didn’t say “SELF! Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness …” Looking at it like you do, it makes God look like a skit-so.

It seems your set in your ways and apostate ideas on the Witnesses. So with that said I’m done arguing with you. Its also seems that Satan has vialed your eyes and hardened your heart to the truth.

Krusty or Mitch, I hope you have better luck with this guy b/c I think I'm done. I hate to stop, but it seems like I'm talking to a brick wall.
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krustytheclown

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« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2004, 12:32:00 AM »

I'm done as well, I have better things to do with my time than waste more time than I already did.

Jesusphreak, don't think that you "won" this conversation/arguement. You haven't.
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AkumAPRIME

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« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2004, 05:08:00 PM »

With religion, there are never winners
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jesusphreak

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« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2004, 08:51:00 PM »

QUOTE
As for your twisted views on John 1:1, 2 - 1 Timothy 2:5, puts a slightly different angel on it, see if this makes more since to you. 1 Timothy 2:5; “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,” Now dose that not say there are more than one being there? There is two, God and his Son. The KJV says the same thing.


You obviously aren't reading that the same way I am. I read it as, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men (this is implying that this is saying that there is one God and this one God is the mediator). I don't read that the same way you do. And honestly, I don't read it based off of what some organization tells me to read it as. I read it as I see it.

I wonder how others would read it?

QUOTE
Now on that same note, lets take a look at Genesis. Genesis 1:26; “And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness …” To me, it seems there is more than just God sitting up there in the Heavens (at least to me and 6.5million other people). God didn’t say “SELF! Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness …” Looking at it like you do, it makes God look like a skit-so.


I don't think so at all. I think God in this instance is talking to the angels. Do angels not exist? Does this really require you either saying that he is talking of multiple gods or that he's a skitzophrenic? It doesn't seem that difficult to me.

QUOTE
It seems your set in your ways and apostate ideas on the Witnesses. So with that said I’m done arguing with you. Its also seems that Satan has vialed your eyes and hardened your heart to the truth.

Krusty or Mitch, I hope you have better luck with this guy b/c I think I'm done. I hate to stop, but it seems like I'm talking to a brick wall.


Hmm...

Is all of my thinking really apostate? Or is it apostate to what the Watchtower believes? You failed to answer anything else I put into my post. You are ignoring what I'm saying and believing what you want to. I don't think that I'm hardheaded nor stubborn. I'm just trying to help you out, and you are refusing to even hear what I'm saying.

QUOTE
The NWT was just revised back in 1984, and out of six and half million (or so) Witnesses you don’t think at least one of them has a degree in Greek or Hebrew? A friend of mine is 17 years old, he speaks Hebrew, and speaks it well. It doesn’t take a degree in some thing to translate. I can speak German, but I don’t have a degree in German, so dose that mean I’m not qualified to translate a German book, or even a restaurant menu?


That's very true. Modern Greek and modern Hebrew are not at all the same thing as ancient Greek or ancient Hebrew. Ask any language scholar about that. Languages change. Languages evolve. You cannot translate a 2000 year old piece of work based off of understanding of a modern version of the language. So actually, your reasoning is wrong, and if it is the reasoning of the Watchtower organization at large, I'd be concerned in what they believe.

Please read and understand what I'm saying.

QUOTE
Let me ask you "jesusphreak", if Jesus was God when he was on Earth how come people didn't start piling up at his feet dead? For Exodus 33:20 says:

20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." - NIV

20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, (1) for no man can see Me and live!" NASTB

20 GOD continued, "But you may not see my face. No one can see me and live." - MSG

None of those were from our version but ours says the exact same thing!


This is where the theology of JWs fails to make sense of Christ in the Od Testament. The Angel of the Lord appears throughout the Old Testament. Every single time this "Angel" appears, people bow down and worship him. This is what is strange. The rest of the angels found in the Bible deny the worship of the people. They tell them that the people should worship God alone and not Him. But this "Angel" doesn't do that. He let's the people worship him. Not only this, but in several cases, after people seeing the angel, they are amazed over the fact that, "I have seen God face to face and have not died".

Now, is this really an angel, or is it Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, whom people can see and live, and yet not die....

Think about it. It'll whack up the whole JW theology....

The Story of Hagar in the Desert (Genesis 16):

7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.
9 Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count." 11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:

"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [1]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [2] all his brothers."

13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen [3] the One who sees me." 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [4] ; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

Moses and the Burning Bush:

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up."
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
And Moses said, "Here I am."
5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.


Balak and the Donkey:

31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
32 The angel of the LORD asked him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me. [3] 33 The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If she had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared her."
34 Balaam said to the angel of the LORD , "I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back."
35 The angel of the LORD said to Balaam, "Go with the men, but speak only what I tell you." So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
36 When Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the Moabite town on the Arnon border, at the edge of his territory. 37 Balak said to Balaam, "Did I not send you an urgent summons? Why didn't you come to me? Am I really not able to reward you?"
38 "Well, I have come to you now," Balaam replied. "But can I say just anything? I must speak only what God puts in my mouth." 39 Then Balaam went with Balak to Kiriath Huzoth. 40 Balak sacrificed cattle and sheep, and gave some to Balaam and the princes who were with him. 41 The next morning Balak took Balaam up to Bamoth Baal, and from there he saw part of the people.

Gideon and the Angel of the Lord

11 The angel of the LORD came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, "The LORD is with you, mighty warrior."
13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."
14 The LORD turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
15 "But Lord , [1] " Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The LORD answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the LORD said, "I will wait until you return."
19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah [2] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD , he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD ! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"
23 But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."


The Birth of Samson

9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, "He's here! The man who appeared to me the other day!"
11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, "Are you the one who talked to my wife?"
"I am," he said.
12 So Manoah asked him, "When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule for the boy's life and work?"
13 The angel of the LORD answered, "Your wife must do all that I have told her. 14 She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her."
15 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD , "We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you."
16 The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD ." (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD .) 17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD , "What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?"
18 He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding. [1] " 19
Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the LORD . And the LORD did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD .
22 "We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"
23 But his wife answered, "If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this."


I find this verse very interesting:

“In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old” (Isa. 63:9).

Also, notice this angel's hesitation to be worshipped: "0At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." - Revelation 19

Notice 1 John 4:12 -

"12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

and Exodus 33:19-20:

19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD , in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
"20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

So...

Let me ask you this....

If the angels of the Bible reject worship, and the Angel of the Lord accepts worship, who is he?

If the Bible says that no man has seen God, and God says that no man may see him or die, why do people of the Old Testament become frightened of death when they realize who the angel of the Lord is?

Why does the Angel of the Lord accept offerings?

Why does he speak with the very words of God?

and most of all, why do people think they have seen God after seeing him?

There must be some kind of contradiction here according to your reasoning. If Jesus was not God, why did he accept worship. Is it not possible that the Angel of the Lord was Jesus Christ in the Old Testament? It really is the only logical explanation. I mean, he does everything as God, he accepts himself as God, and yet people don't die when they see him. Doesn't that sound like the Christ?

What do you think? According to the JW theology, this doesn't make sense. Jesus is just God's son, he isn't God himself, so he isn't worthy of worship and he isn't God in the flesh. The Angel of the Lord argues otherwise.

Just something to actually consider.

In the love of Christ, jesusphreak...
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