xbox-scene.com archived forum

Xbox1 Forums => Software Forums => *nix OS on Xbox => Topic started by: thr3311jd on June 19, 2003, 06:42:40 PM

Title: Windows 98
Post by: thr3311jd on June 19, 2003, 06:42:40 PM

 I want some input on this.  Do you think it will take off?  Do you think anyone will make an easier way to install it?




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Skipper on June 19, 2003, 06:44:17 PM

 Doubt it, Windows 98 was shitty on a regular PC let alone run it on an Xbox




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 06:46:44 PM

 Why would it take off? Theres linux for xbox, theres no need for windows.




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 07:22:54 PM

 You guys have to think a little more about this. Most people run windows. Most dont want Linux. So dont force it on them. Let people have there options.

Windows is easy to learn (no commands etc..) most people dont have to read up to learn windows.

Linux (very high learning curve) have to read tuturial after tuturual just to get a very basic understanding.

This is why alot of people want windows. No hiding it.




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 07:37:09 PM

 
QUOTE (Takenover83 @ Jun 20 2003, 05:22 AM)
You guys have to think a little more about this. Most people run windows. Most dont want Linux. So dont force it on them. Let people have there options.

Windows is easy to learn (no commands etc..) most people dont have to read up to learn windows.

Linux (very high learning curve) have to read tuturial after tuturual just to get a very basic understanding.

This is why alot of people want windows. No hiding it.

Thats not true at all. You dont need to read nothing to get basic day to day use. And you only have commands to type in linux if you use the shell, not unlike command prompt in windows (except shell works), but most newbies use a GUI, either KDE or GNOME, which are pretty much like the windows desktop anyway. The only time it gets hard is when you try to do high end configurations, which dont really need to be messed with as its rare the system fails to set itself up properly from the install.

EDIT: And remember we're talking about linux on XBOX, there is nothing you will need to configure, its not like you can add new hardware to the machine is it  tongue.gif  




Edited by Morglum, 20 June 2003 - 03:44 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: neomaytricks on June 19, 2003, 07:38:33 PM

 I agree, Winblows 95, 98 its a nice work that shallax is doing but I am happy with Linux on my xbox.    




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 07:44:08 PM

 Trust me pal. Ive been learning linux for the last year. I woudnt recommend it to anyone yet. For the simple fact that it is just to hard to learn quickly. Normal users play games (with aceleration), read email, surf the web, download mp3's etc... If I was to tell a friend how to install the Nvidia drivers for linux, they would get totally lost. They would say screw this and go back to Xp. One wrong move and your OS is at risk. I like linux but it sure isnt for non experienced users.




Edited by Takenover83, 20 June 2003 - 03:45 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 07:49:35 PM

 
QUOTE (Takenover83 @ Jun 20 2003, 05:44 AM)
One wrong move and your OS is at risk. I like linux but it sure isnt for non experienced users.

Only if you're using root, which a retard would be doing unless it was something critical that needed setting. Anyone can kill a windows system, only root or root privelidged users can kill linux, normal users can do no damage at all. And ive been using Linux and Solaris for around 6 years or more, you trust me, it is straight forward and simple for the normal user. As ive said in another post, even my computer illiteral fiancee can use linux and finds it easy. Also adding drivers isnt hard at all, copy and paste a few files to a directory, wow, rocket science  dry.gif  hell you dont even need to add drivers for most things, the kernel supports the marjority of popular hardware, and if it dont then sure add a new drive, or just download the newest kernel update, Or better still if you have the knowledge update the kernel yourself.




Edited by Morglum, 20 June 2003 - 03:52 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 07:53:07 PM

 Thats just it. Most comomon pc users dont want the hassel. They want something simple. Linux is not simple. Compiling, Commands, configuring text files etc... Most users want no part of it. If they cant install something within a user friendly gui, then they dont want it. Yes you been working with Linux for 6 years. Its a walk in the park for you, but not your adverage joe smo newbie.

*and yes a newbie would make the mistake of using root, hell when i started off I screwed my Linux up a couple times from that very reason*




Edited by Takenover83, 20 June 2003 - 03:54 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 07:57:39 PM

 You obviously never seen the new mandrake installer then, thats even nicer than anything ive ever seen in a windows system. And did you miss the part about my computer illiterate fiancee using linux and finding it easy, hell calling her computer illiterate is being kind aswell, shes down right retarded when it comes to computers  tongue.gif And theres nothing to configure with Linux, WTF release you using, Red Hat 2.0 or something? Almost everything is configured right from the install automatically. And like i said earlier, we're talking about XBOX not PC.

Heh and if a newbie uses root then they deserve to kill their system. KDE and GNOME both spit up a huge warning screen when you first log in as root saying you can kill your system from using root and they advise you to log in as a standard user.




Edited by Morglum, 20 June 2003 - 03:58 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 08:04:56 PM

 
QUOTE (Morglum @ Jun 20 2003, 05:57 AM)
You obviously never seen the new mandrake installer then, thats even nicer than anything ive ever seen in a windows system. And did you miss the part about my computer illiterate fiancee using linux and finding it easy, hell calling her computer illiterate is being kind aswell, shes down right retarded when it comes to computers  tongue.gif And theres nothing to configure with Linux, WTF release you using, Red Hat 2.0 or something? Almost everything is configured right from the install automatically. And like i said earlier, we're talking about XBOX not PC.

Defend it all you want. Im only sharing what is reality. Your there to help your future wife out when she has a question etc...  And yes I have used it *mandrake 9.1, very nice) I said ive been learning for the last year, now why would I use redhat 2.0 if ive been learning for about a year? Think a little longer before you insult me. Im not standing up for windows. Im not standing up for Linux. Just saying most people want something SIMPLE, (simple enough where they dont need there future husband right around the corner when questions come to mind).

Most people are familar with windows there for its very easy to learn.

Linux doesnt have that advantage yet. Maybe someday it will.

Least agree Linux for the most part is for advanced pc Users.

Windows is for the newbs.




Edited by Takenover83, 20 June 2003 - 04:05 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: thr3311jd on June 19, 2003, 08:09:57 PM

 but what about the software and game choices for windows, wouldn't that attract many people to put that on their x-box instead of linux?




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 08:14:03 PM

 I asked if you're using redhat 2.0 because all you talk about is configuring shit, when its not really needed anymore as its mosty automatic. And as for my fiancee, the only time she's asked for help was when she forgot her password, and when she couldnt find the MP3 player, oh and how to get out of shell because she maximised the terminal and didnt know how to get out without turning the computer off, other than that she dont ask me for help, she finds it quite easy and straight forward to use. Though right now she seems to like XP Pro because she can just click a little icon and dont have to keep typing a user name and password in  laugh.gif  




Title: Windows 98
Post by: feflicker on June 19, 2003, 08:18:05 PM

 
QUOTE
You guys have to think a little more about this. Most people run windows. Most dont want Linux. So dont force it on them. Let people have there options.

Windows is easy to learn (no commands etc..) most people dont have to read up to learn windows.

Linux (very high learning curve) have to read tuturial after tuturual just to get a very basic understanding.

This is why alot of people want windows. No hiding it.


My question is: When was the last time you sampled a linux distro? Installing and using most linux flavors is WAY EASIER than installing and configuring Windows 2000 or Windows XP.  ohmy.gif

My Point: I reloaded my laptop last weekend. It took 4 hours to fully install XP, download Service Packs, install software, etc... It took 1.5 hours to load Sco Linux Server 3.1 (formerly Caldera), and it came with several packages, including gnome and kde ready to roll. I was online in a matter of minues, connected to my PC, sharing files, etc.  wink.gif

For the xbox, all most want to do is surf the internet, use ftp and irc. Linux does that easily, and all through a GUI just like windows.  ph34r.gif

Who would rather *emulate* windows through Linux, and suffer extreme performance implications, than just take the opportunity to learn a little bit about the Corporate OS of the future, Linux?  beerchug.gif

I still use Windows as my primary OS, just due to the wide range of software available on the PC platform, like most people. I am not a "fanboy", but I think it is ridiculous when people recite nonsense about Linux from "Computer World" articles from 3-4 years ago~!  blink.gif  




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 08:20:02 PM

QUOTE (thr3311jd @ Jun 20 2003, 06:09 AM)
but what about the software and game choices for windows, wouldn't that attract many people to put that on their x-box instead of linux?

Why run windows games on your xbox when you got a pc to do it, or even better still, and xbox to play games on tongue.gif But once again whats with everyone thinking there are no games for unix based and clone systems? Theres a whole heap of games out there.

I spend many a day at work on my Solaris system playing Quake 3 Arena over the internal LAN and online, the same with Unreal Tournament 2003 to name another. Now i will admit its hard to find games that are for SPARCs but for standard x86 Linux machines there is hundreds if not thousands of top games released.




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 08:21:28 PM

 I dont blame her much.  Linux is great, But I use windows most of the time. For the simple fact that it is point and click.

And I dont care how automatic Linux is when you 1st install it. Everyone has to install stuff to suit there needs.  And once the main stream user see's that its no walk in the ball park, they will ask for a refund.

Things Windows users dont want to do.

Type commands
Install from a shell
Configure permissions
spend hours compiling software etc...
Figure out how to run all those windows games and apps on linux

The list goes on and on. Linux is not SIMPLE for most people.






Edited by Takenover83, 20 June 2003 - 04:22 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 08:23:06 PM

QUOTE (feflicker @ Jun 20 2003, 06:18 AM)
I think it is ridiculous when people recite nonsense about Linux from "Computer World" articles from 3-4 years ago~!  blink.gif

I couldnt agree more with you on that comment and the rest of your post. Most people are getting scared off by hearsay, sure in the past linux was a pain to setup if you didnt know what you were doing, but now ANYONE can set it up, it takes no more skill than popping in a cd and clicking a few buttons.




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 08:29:05 PM

 
QUOTE (Takenover83 @ Jun 20 2003, 06:21 AM)
I dont blame her much.� Linux is great, But I use windows most of the time. For the simple fact that it is point and click.

And I dont care how automatic Linux is when you 1st install it. Everyone has to install stuff to suit there needs.� And once the main stream user see's that its no walk in the ball park, they will ask for a refund.

Things Windows users dont want to do.

Type commands
Install from a shell
Configure permissions
spend hours compiling software etc...
Figure out how to run all those windows games and apps on linux

The list goes on and on. Linux is not SIMPLE for most people.

1) how do you get refunded from something that you download for FREE?
2) linux GUIs are point and click.
3) you dont need to type commands in linux, it has MANY GUIs to pick from, shell is optional.
4) you have configure permissions now with windows, look at all releases 2000 and up.
5) you dont need to compile, 99% of all software is distributed as binary along with source.
6) you dont need windows games for linux, it has its own, read my previous post.
7) there are more apps for linux that there is windows, and 95% of them are FREE.


And as for your list going on and on, lets hear some more, ive not heard anything solid enough to stick.  beerchug.gif

Oh and as for you saying you dont blame her, you can change linux to log users in just by clicking an icon how XP is. I wont have it setup that way, i hate seeing the stupid little icons, i like a real login screen.




Edited by Morglum, 20 June 2003 - 04:50 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 08:50:51 PM

 Im sorry I dont have all night to just to get the point across that linux isnt for most people yet.

*I did type Windows games and apps*

I know there are thousands of games and apps for linux, but that doesnt amount to a quarter of whats out there for windows.

I can see your are going to defend Linux to the death. Which is ok by me. I guess saying Windows is more user friendly is a crime or something. But I will put your theory to test. I will throw Linux(mandrake) to one of my friends and let you know how he handles it. This will be fun. I guarantee my phone will be ringing off the hook. Person is the same age as me. Soon as he relizes he cant run most of the Hot games that our out today(maybe with winex but he dont know that),  he will be down my throat.




Edited by Takenover83, 20 June 2003 - 04:51 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 08:57:23 PM

 LOL, so now you're talking about it emulating windows, emulation is a whole differant topic, you're getting stupid now, you clearly dont know what you're talking about. If you want something that will not only "emulate" but RUN windows flawlessly on a linux system then get VMware. You cant keep changing direction of topic once you realise you're losing, and there are thousands MORE apps for linux than there is for windows, read over what ive said again properly.


And talking about wine, take a look at this link, it CLEARLY states wine isnt suitable for general use.

http://www.winehq.com/?page=about (http://www.winehq.com/?page=about)




Edited by Morglum, 20 June 2003 - 05:00 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 09:01:16 PM

 Dont get wrong im not dumb. Still a newb at linux. I Dont remember asking to use VMWARE to emulate the whole OS. Only mentioning that if he knew what WINEX was he MIGHT be able to get some of these newer games to work. But doubtful. You totally took it the wrong way. Getting a little overwelmed to quickly eh?




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 09:02:57 PM

 Losing?

I didnt know this was a competition.

I thought it was a debate. Actually this started off by saying would win98 take off. But I guess you want to turn it into a competition. If so im outa here. Go find someone else to compete with.




Edited by Takenover83, 20 June 2003 - 05:04 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 09:03:53 PM

 Your trying to say linux is poor simply because it wont run windows applications nativly, thats like bitching MACs wont run Windows applications, i hate to break it to you but windows executables are NOT a standard and nore will they ever be, there is no need for any other OS to support them. Then saying you'll have trouble with wine, which isnt even classed as alpha, thats just retarded. If you're so desperate to use your windows trash on linux use VMware, else dont use linux at all.




Edited by Morglum, 20 June 2003 - 05:05 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Takenover83 on June 19, 2003, 09:08:40 PM

 Im not. Because I will just use Windows to play my games.

But If I was to give my friend a copy of Linux he would be angry that he couldnt play most of his games he owns. You dont think I was talking about me do ya? And your are no longer in a state of mind to where I want to discuss this with you, Your choice of words is not what I would call apealing reading(retarded, stupid etc...).

*ill just edit this post*

Whats wrong with playing Pc games on a pc! If you have all those games why let them go to waiste? You do want to play them right? Doesnt sound stupid at all.

*my final post sence this thread is just really gone to hell, and yes I hope Windows moves on and we find ways to enhance it on xbox.(thats is what the topic is about) Didnt mean to start a "win vs linux" war lol




Edited by Takenover83, 20 June 2003 - 05:22 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 09:17:56 PM

 Anyone dumb enough to think they can play their windows games nativly on linux needs taking behind the shed and beating with a lead pipe, with any luck it'll knocksome sence into them. Thats like buying an N64 and expecting to be able to play playstation games on it. I dont know how anyone could even think you can play windows based games on a linux system, theyre 2 totally differant systems.

And my state of mind is utter dispair, i cant believe how utterly stupid some people can be, no bloody wonder the worlds in the poor state it is, there so many stupid people populating it.




Edited by Morglum, 20 June 2003 - 05:18 AM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: TB_88 on June 19, 2003, 11:19:23 PM

 I installed debian linux on my xbox and i needed to be root to get the sound working andd im a linux noob so how could i learn to fix the sound...




Title: Windows 98
Post by: mxlegend99 on June 19, 2003, 11:38:50 PM

QUOTE (Morglum @ Jun 20 2003, 07:03 AM)
Your trying to say linux is poor simply because it wont run windows applications nativly, thats like bitching MACs wont run Windows applications, i hate to break it to you but windows executables are NOT a standard and nore will they ever be, there is no need for any other OS to support them. Then saying you'll have trouble with wine, which isnt even classed as alpha, thats just retarded. If you're so desperate to use your windows trash on linux use VMware, else dont use linux at all.

I never saw him knock Linux as an OS. All i say was him saying that *most* people, would prefer Windows. And you know what? I definitely would. WIndows is by far easier, there is nothing to it. YOu insert CD ROm, install yada yada, you got an OS, which is setup for your PC. Now when i last tried Linux on my PC, there was alot more to it than that. Granted, i didnt go for an easy install, i went for gentoox. IT was murder. I had to choose what stage i started at, and if i wanted it to be optimised for my system, that would be stage1. And then in compile times etc. It would take forever.
I havent tried Mandrake, so im not sure of its Installer. But i have KDE and WMaker, and they are nowhere near as simple of an interface as Windows XP is. WindowsXP setting up permissions? WTF? YOu said all OS's 200 and up requirte this, well XP doesnt. Sure, Win2000 might, and 2003 does (i am pissed of by that, granted. I put it on one of my otehr PCs....) but XP is simple. Install, play. As for Service Packs, the reason that all that would of taken so long, was probably due to slow connection.
I can install Windows XP (20mins or so), put in all my drivers (video, chipset, sound etc.), put in Service pack 1, and all the other little security thigns that may be new at the time, and all in less than an hour and a half.
And as for there being more apps on Linux, who cares? There is an app for every linux version of it, or one thats similar. Hell the reason for there being so many, is alot are replacements for the WIndows Versions (ie. word etc.). ANd till now, in most parts its fairly similar either way (if you where to use Mandrake with installer), but when it comes to gaming, windows kills it. Sure, Linux may have its share of Linux games, and emulate directx, but isnt the point being argued which is simpler?
WIndows XP = Put in cd, install game, click icon.
Linux = (for the same game you would use in XP) running wine, then setting up the program, then running the program through wine. Sure, its possible for icons with the right command line to launch it, but i know at first, its not so easy to figure out.

Fact of the matter = People like simple shit. I do too. Install a game and click an icon. Play the game. Not worry about having to launch other programs for it to work, and wait for new releases of emulators (wine) for it to work.
BUt then all this is assuming your using a game which dont come on Linux, as most dont..... or atleast the ones i play.

But thats not to knock Linux, i like it. Its nice, not too hard to use, and if you persist, it can do everything that windows can. Its just not as simple.... but for the price, hell who cares. Im happy with Gentoox on my Xbox, and for what im using it for, no, Windows98 isnt needed... but guess what, im putting it on anyway.... go figure:P

Reason = Because i can, plain and simple. Nothing like showing off what the Xbox can really do to your mates who prefer PS2. beerchug.gif  




Title: Windows 98
Post by: mxlegend99 on June 19, 2003, 11:42:10 PM

 ANd thats pretty long, so to summarise it:

Windows = Easy to use, alot simpler, and alot easier for people who like to play games.

Linux = Not as easy, can be simple when you put in a GUI, but when it comes to games, is why people would prefer Windows.

Oh, and Windows2000, and 2003 only require those extra setting, because there server OS's, there not meant for an everyday machine...(i use Win2003 on one tho, its nice and fast, once its setup). CAnt really say about how they are harder, when most people wont be trying to use them..... thats why WindowsXP was created. To put an OS with all the other stuff, into a dummies package biggrin.gif  




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 11:47:26 PM

 WTF is it with all these retards and talking about windows games not working right with wine or needing configuration, its fucking emulation! Nothing todo with linux it self. How many linux games can windows emulate 0, oh thats it then , windows is shit. Thats the mentality of most of you know nothings. And XP does need file permissions setting up, it just depends what options you pick when installing, you can set it to either keep each users space private or make it public, try reading the screen alittle more carefully next time insted of being click happy. And 20mins to install XP, dont talk out your arsehole  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  




Title: Windows 98
Post by: Morglum on June 19, 2003, 11:48:50 PM

 
QUOTE (mxlegend99 @ Jun 20 2003, 09:42 AM)
Oh, and Windows2000, and 2003 only require those extra setting, because there server OS's, there not meant for an everyday machine.

Wrong again, windows 2000 pro is a workstation OS. I think im just wasting my time in this thread, no one seems to know WTF theyre talking about, i think i'll leave you all to squabble about incorrect facts for and amongst yourselves.




Edited by Morglum, 20 June 2003 - 07:51 AM.


Title: NULL
Post by: 'mxlegend99' on June 20, 2003, 03:44:41 AM
'
               
QUOTE (Morglum @ Jun 20 2003, 09:48 AM)
QUOTE (mxlegend99 @ Jun 20 2003, 09:42 AM)
Oh, and Windows2000, and 2003 only require those extra setting, because there server OS's, there not meant for an everyday machine.

Wrong again, windows 2000 pro is a workstation OS. I think im just wasting my time in this thread, no one seems to know WTF theyre talking about, i think i'll leave you all to squabble about incorrect facts for and amongst yourselves.

YOu are wasting your time. YOur not listening to a thing thats being said FFS. Nobody is agaisnt Linux, its just been stated windows is Easier. PLAIN AND SIMPLE
A workstation OS is used mainly for what..... a server. And either way, its not for gaming, which is the point i was actually making.

QUOTE
WTF is it with all these retards and talking about windows games not working right with wine or needing configuration, its fucking emulation! Nothing todo with linux it self. How many linux games can windows emulate 0, oh thats it then , windows is shit.

YOUR THE FUCKEN RETARD. Why the fuck would windows need to emulate it? It has no need, because all the games are made for Windows. Which is the point. again, plain and simple.

QUOTE
And 20mins to install XP, dont talk out your arsehole

WTF are you on about? 20 mins... thats right. I dont know what POS PC your using, for this to seem impossible to you. Its probably not an exact 20 mins, hence the "or so", but its less than half an hour.  And within an Hour and a Half, its setup for gaming, thats all that matters. I got all my drivers in, all my necessary updates,


You are fucken Ignorant. You have a go at me, for stating nothing but fact. How can you think, that because Linux is in your opinion better, that for every one else, it should be there choice of OS? Windows is Easier. Windows is simpler. Windows does what you want it to, with as little input as possible. Windows has features for if you fuck shit up. ie. Rollback Drivers etc.

Windows is more user friendly. Its easier, and more to the point, its BETTER FOR GAMING. Windows has a larger gaming variety than linux. Even with all the games Linux emulates, and its own, there is no reason for a gamer, to choose linux.
If you werent so up yourself, and didnt think your opinion was be all end all, you would see that.
I in no way had a go at you, and i stated fact, you stated opinion. ANd then you call all us retards for saying Windows is easier to use then Linux? ANd for saying Windows has more games....
And to back your theory up, you say windows cannot run any Linux games..... rolleyes.gif

I didnt intend to have any conflict, but you are an idiot. You dont take any persons posts into account, and you dont consider why the majority will like something... why must it be that if you have used it for 6yrs, and decided its easier to use, that it is?
               
               

               
            
'
Title: NULL
Post by: 'mxlegend99' on June 20, 2003, 03:47:36 AM
'
                BTW, im not posting to you again. Its clear to me, that your some idiot, who wont take one word in that post seriously, and in some way try and make out as if Linux is Easier, and is better for people etc.
I know that 99% of people agree with me that Windows is easier. And for those who dont, well, i'd love to see what logic makes them think that......
Im not saying Linux is hard, just that windows is easier, THATS ALL. Oh, and that its a way better platform for ease of gaming. Even when it emulates things, its as simple as clicking on the rom, and playing it......  
               
               

               
            '
Title: NULL
Post by: 'luther349' on June 20, 2003, 05:05:37 AM
'
                i guess noone uses redhat lol. as for bochs its simply to slow vmware is alot better.
               
               

               
            '
Title: NULL
Post by: 'kollision' on June 20, 2003, 05:19:27 AM
'
                Hey morglum I like your Elder Futhark.  FIRST PERSON I SEE WIT IT!!
               
               

               
            '
Title: NULL
Post by: 'feflicker' on June 20, 2003, 01:18:48 PM
'
                The only point I wanted to make was that there is no argument that "Windows is easier to use for basic computing".

That is not true. Just because everyone learned windows first, doesn't mean it was easier to use.  biggrin.gif

If you took someone who had never used either, and taught them from scratch, I believe they could use Linux or Windows, with the SAME learning curve.  ohmy.gif

Just because you were taught on a windows system doesn't make it *easier*. That makes it more *comfortable*  wink.gif  
               
               

               
            '
Title: NULL
Post by: 'mxlegend99' on June 20, 2003, 02:09:43 PM
'
               
QUOTE (feflicker @ Jun 20 2003, 11:18 PM)
The only point I wanted to make was that there is no argument that "Windows is easier to use for basic computing".

That is not true. Just because everyone learned windows first, doesn't mean it was easier to use.  biggrin.gif

If you took someone who had never used either, and taught them from scratch, I believe they could use Linux or Windows, with the SAME learning curve.  ohmy.gif

Just because you were taught on a windows system doesn't make it *easier*. That makes it more *comfortable*  wink.gif

Well, in my opinion, and my opinion alone, Gaming falls under basic computing. Now any person who wants to play a game, will have alot easier time doing so, under Windows.

Also, people who want to have the latest drivers, will have alot easier time. If you screw up, boot into Safe Mode and fix it.

Windows is alot easier, in that there are alot of ways, to correcting your mistakes. Sure, there maybe this in Linux, but its not as simple, and i dont know howto use it.

And i guarantee if i where starting of on both OS's right now, WIndows would have it in the bag, for its ease of setting up games and playing them. FOr the fact that i like the latest drivers, and i always use them, unless they seem buggy, i will just rollback.

morglum  however, was calling us retards for finding WIndows easier. Now sure, we may have been around windows for along time, but i do recall him saying he had been on Linux for 6years. Thats the exact same position as we are in. ANd no matter what way you look at it, the average simple installation of games that people want to play, is much simpler on Windows. Unless one of the later versions of Wine, has integrated into the OS, and made it so theres no need to run the program with Wine infront (last version i used was 2.?)

Now with noob people, they would like, put in game, auto start. Click install, then click icon once finished. And same for programs, theres nothing really that hard for windows users to figure out. (atleast not that any noob would worry about, i still got a friend who has trouble with MSN Messenger FFS, he dont know how to change his name etc. And he takes 2mins for a reply, because he cant find the keys on the keyboard wink.gif )
               
               

               
            
'
Title: NULL
Post by: 'mxlegend99' on June 20, 2003, 02:18:39 PM
'
               
QUOTE (feflicker @ Jun 20 2003, 11:18 PM)
The only point I wanted to make was that there is no argument that "Windows is easier to use for basic computing".

That is not true. Just because everyone learned windows first, doesn't mean it was easier to use.  biggrin.gif

If you took someone who had never used either, and taught them from scratch, I believe they could use Linux or Windows, with the SAME learning curve.  ohmy.gif

Just because you were taught on a windows system doesn't make it *easier*. That makes it more *comfortable*  wink.gif

one more thing. I wasnt taught on windows. I grew up on DOS. BOth Linux and Windows are much simpler than dos. My first PC didnt even have DOS on it. It was a Tandy PC of somesort. All i can remember is the BIOS i think, had instructions to boot of a floppy, and it had no hard drive. The PC was capable of almost nothing, besides whatever the floppy had.... then our 286 came, and we had 40megs.... goddamn i thought i owned the world cool.gif

WE had an OS before Windows 3.1, im not sure if it was an earlier Windows, or what (i was kinda young). But it wasnt nearly as good as when we first scored WIn3.1, that kicked ass. Then when 95 first came out we got it. I hated it for months. It was so different to what i had. Then i found out it had the program manager, and ran that..... i immediately saw how Windows 95 had improved on it, the ease of Start Menu, clicking of icons on hte desktop.

Sure, you always got a soft spot for what you learn on, i still love DOS.... But im also looking at this from 3rd Person perspective..... If i where fully noob to both, never touched a mouse/keyboard etc. Windows would appeal to me, as would it *most* people.
               
               

               
            
'
Title: NULL
Post by: 'feflicker' on June 20, 2003, 05:45:00 PM
'
               
QUOTE
Sure, you always got a soft spot for what you learn on, i still love DOS.... But im also looking at this from 3rd Person perspective..... If i where fully noob to both, never touched a mouse/keyboard etc. Windows would appeal to me, as would it *most* people.


Since you said so much, I am just gonna comment on the last paragraph, that pretty much summed up what you said...

I guess we can agree to disagree. I don't see how someone who has never seen Windows or KDE could tell the difference if it was the first time they were using a computer... It would look the same, and be the same to learn/use.

In fact, you can set 2000/XP to have a *theme* that looks just like KDE, or setup KDE to look EXACTLY like 2000/XP. <straight out of the box>  wink.gif

And "Basic Computing Needs" does not entail gaming. (That is your need, not a need required by most personal computer users) How many computers in the world have games loaded on them? Not many.... Most "personal" computers are used for document editing, email, web browsing, etc. Hell, most PC's in the US are just AOL terminals  jester.gif

               
               

               
            
'
Title: NULL
Post by: 'luther349' on June 20, 2003, 07:24:15 PM
'
                what bs. linux can run most windows game via winex but shhhhhhh he musent understand that at all. and abought 30% of all windoes apps run with standerd wine. as for linux vs windows linx has become mutch easer to use and run then it was in the old days. its pretty command line free now unless you whant to do some serious stuff suck as tweaking and customising the system to what you whant it to do.

but linux is still diffrent in many ways and not everyone likes change. kinda like windows 3.1 came out everyone screamed hell no we ant dumping dos for some hard to use windows program. now look windows is on 98% of all pcs there is.

so linux will slowly get accepted just as windows was its just a very slow prosses. as for the guy dissing linux screaming its hard to use and dont understand it. ill say you should relly take some time and sit down and try it and lern a litle abought it. i installed redhat 7.0 compleatly clueless on how to use it but i figured mine as well lern. now i would never get rid of it im running a dual boot of redhat 9.0 and winxp.

and dont worry abought messing it up thats the fun of lerning i destoryed my redhat 7.0 install so many times i lost count lol.
               
               

               


                     Edited by luther349, 21 June 2003 - 03:26 AM.
                     
                  


            '
Title: NULL
Post by: 'HumanClay' on June 20, 2003, 09:18:11 PM
'
                Someone saying how Linux is so easy to understand for day to day use? Is that why people need a walkthrough just to unpack a ZIP file or just to install a program? All of that sort of this is commandline based and you ave to know what ur typing, not just fiddle around and figure it, not the avg user.

I mean get real people sure , Linux is cool , i have it running on my xbox and for UBER basic things like browse web and instand messaging sure it's fine...but If i want to do everythinhg I do now on my Linux PC you'd have to REALLY learn and study, and for most people they don't want that. I mean seriously are you telling me that downloading say a program off www.download.com for Linux and one for Windows that it is as easy to install that for both systems? And NO if you gave someone a Linux pc and a Windows and then they hadnt used either NATURALLY they'd think windows is easier because it is SIMPLER. That is a FACT.  It IS easier to use. NOOBs DO find it difficult, granted if u want to lisen to a cd,browse the web and instant mesage sure its CAKE but anything beyond that can become an ordeal for someone who doesn't use command line prompts and commands.

And  I thought i'd add this
QUOTE
i destoryed my redhat 7.0 install so many times i lost count lol.

EXACTLY, you got Linux , didn't know it and destroyed it. People don't like nuking their PC...

QUOTE
1) how do you get refunded from something that you download for FREE?

Hello?! They sell Mandrake and Redhat in stores. Comes with extra software packages....

               
               

               


                     Edited by HumanClay, 21 June 2003 - 05:23 AM.
                     
                  


            
'
Title: NULL
Post by: 'feflicker' on June 20, 2003, 09:42:21 PM
'
                What is with everyone saying that everything is "command prompt" driven? Sure, there is a powerful shell behind the OS, unlike Windows, but you can still do just about everything through the GUI... (Including all administrative functions). I can't speak for RedHat so much, but I use SCO w/ KDE, and it is equivalent to any other GUI OS.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE
but If i want to do everythinhg I do now on my Linux PC you'd have to REALLY learn and study


We can all agree with that (atleast for the very near future). The keyword used was *everything*. We are talking about running Windows vs. Linux on the xbox. It makes no sense to emulate Windows from the xbox, when you can do what you need with Linux (basic personal computing). Be realistic, you can install Linux on your xbox, and get it to emulate Windows, but can't take the time to learn a little more about Linux? See the point we are making here?


QUOTE
Is that why people need a walkthrough just to unpack a ZIP file or just to install a program?


Those same people come to this forum and ask what a ".rar" file is, so what is the difference?

Downloading and installing a program in Linux is the same as Windows. You download the installer package (.exe or .msi in windows, .rpm in Linux) and you double-click it and watch it install. What is the difference (other than the number of programs available)?

http://download.com....=linux&tg=dl-20

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't understand why so many people resist Linux... An OS is an OS. A file is a file. A directory is a directory. Etc.   I am not scared to learn anything new. Once you understand what an OS is/does, it is just *another platform* dry.gif

Why pick one over the other because you "think it is easier". Easy is not always better! These people can spend countless hours playing video games and posting on the forum, but are too strapped for time to learn how to run another OS besides Windows?

Remember: Everyone signed up for AOL because it was "easier". Look where that got the internet!  jester.gif

Everyone knows Windows. It is such a joke when I see that on a resume... But when I see Linux, that makes me think "this person might not be cattle".  wink.gif  
               
               

               
            
'
Title: NULL
Post by: 'thr3311jd' on June 20, 2003, 10:00:21 PM
'
                maybe I should of put a Yes or No poll on this topic.. and then let people bitch about it  jester.gif  
               
               

               
            '
Title: NULL
Post by: 'mxlegend99' on June 20, 2003, 10:30:01 PM
'
               
QUOTE (luther349 @ Jun 21 2003, 05:24 AM)
what bs. linux can run most windows game via winex but shhhhhhh he musent understand that at all. and abought 30% of all windoes apps run with standerd wine. as for linux vs windows linx has become mutch easer to use and run then it was in the old days. its pretty command line free now unless you whant to do some serious stuff suck as tweaking and customising the system to what you whant it to do.

but linux is still diffrent in many ways and not everyone likes change. kinda like windows 3.1 came out everyone screamed hell no we ant dumping dos for some hard to use windows program. now look windows is on 98% of all pcs there is.

so linux will slowly get accepted just as windows was its just a very slow prosses. as for the guy dissing linux screaming its hard to use and dont understand it. ill say you should relly take some time and sit down and try it and lern a litle abought it. i installed redhat 7.0 compleatly clueless on how to use it but i figured mine as well lern. now i would never get rid of it im running a dual boot of redhat 9.0 and winxp.

and dont worry abought messing it up thats the fun of lerning i destoryed my redhat 7.0 install so many times i lost count lol.

True, but thats not what the argument is about. It seems everybody is arguing different points biggrin.gif

The original one however, was that Windows is easier than Linux. Which it is. Now they are both capable of the exact same things, but all in all, a PC noobie would be better of on WIndows, if they intended to game etc.

And my XP1900 is gonna have adual boot like yours  wink.gif I have Windows 2003 on the first HD, with 3 Partitions. On the 3rd partition, is the install files for Mandrake 9.1 THen i got a blank HD for Mandrake to be put on, Well, i am about to format it anyways, it had WIn98 on it. And with my motherboard, i press F8 and choose which HDD to boot of. I am thinking of having a proper dual boot aswell, 2 OS on each HDD, WinXP/Win2003 on first, and Mandrake/98 on second..... but theres no reason for it other than i am bored. Honestly, and one of those 4 is more than enough to do me.... its just my backup PC. I only use it for storing files on LOL...... But when this topic came up, i decided to give Mandrake a go, the only Linux i have used is Gentoox, and let me tell you, that is command line driven.... if you had seen the process to install it, you would know what i mean.  
               
               

               
            
'
Title: NULL
Post by: 'mxlegend99' on June 20, 2003, 10:35:12 PM
'
               
QUOTE (Morglum @ Jun 20 2003, 05:57 AM)
You obviously never seen the new mandrake installer then, thats even nicer than anything ive ever seen in a windows system. And did you miss the part about my computer illiterate fiancee using linux and finding it easy, hell calling her computer illiterate is being kind aswell, shes down right retarded when it comes to computers  tongue.gif And theres nothing to configure with Linux, WTF release you using, Red Hat 2.0 or something? Almost everything is configured right from the install automatically. And like i said earlier, we're talking about XBOX not PC.

Heh and if a newbie uses root then they deserve to kill their system. KDE and GNOME both spit up a huge warning screen when you first log in as root saying you can kill your system from using root and they advise you to log in as a standard user.

I had just done with my Mandrake install, and granted it is beautiful. Its not as simple as you put though. I have 2 HDD, first one with 3 partitions. WHile it wasnt difficult, it wasnt as simple as windows, in that i had to direct it to where the folder it was installing from, and then setup partitions for it.
But it was *barely* harder, at worst. It did look nicer though, and it was simple to figure out if you read the screen, and knew where you put the files (i didnt at first, LOL. I couldnt remember which partition, so i restarted in 98, and moved em to E: for a simple install).

Sure, it looks nice, and is a great OS. BUt i still maintain that windows is much easier gaming platform. But being that the PC i put it on, rarely runs a game, its great for it. Its better than WIndows98, in that its on with Windows2003, and Win98 couldnt see Win2003 NTFS drives, but Linux can.


               
               

               
            
'
Title: NULL
Post by: 'Morglum' on June 21, 2003, 02:35:45 AM
'
               
QUOTE (kollision @ Jun 20 2003, 03:19 PM)
Hey morglum I like your Elder Futhark.� FIRST PERSON I SEE WIT IT!!

Thanks  beerchug.gif I was going to use the Futhork, but then i decided to use Futhark as thats where the futhork originated from.
               
               

               


                     Edited by Morglum, 21 June 2003 - 10:38 AM.
                     
                  


            
'
Title: Windows 98
Post by: stealth on June 23, 2003, 01:38:06 PM

 I enjoy both windows and linux.  I have one windows xp machine and one mandrake 9.0 machine at home.

I would have to say that windows is "easier" if you consider the amount of support it has.  If you pick your hardware carefully you can have just as easy a time installing and using linux, but if you want the most variety of hardware and software you had better go windows.

Here are some reasons:

I personally think ATI cards are much better than Nvidia's GeForce series.  While there are some linux drivers available for Ati's cards, they are nowhere near the quality of the windows versions.  The card works perfectly in my windows machine with a simple driver install.

I also bought and installed a soundblaster live to upgrade my linux box from the onboard sound it was using.  It unfortunately was not as simple as plug and play as in the windows case.  I had to rmmod the old driver, and modify my modules.conf appropriately and modprobe the emu10k1 driver to make it work.  After that I had to use kmixer to modify all my settings, which promptly got removed every time my pc restarted.  I got it working fine, but you would think that it would be easier for possibly the most popular soundcard in existance right now.  The card works perfectly in my windows machine with a simple driver install.

I also installed a capture card to get mythtv working.  Of course again I had to go and set some unintuitive property on the btaudio driver module to make it work.  The card works perfectly in my windows machine with a simple driver install.

I also wanted to install an ir reciever to control mythtv.  No problem I thought.. I'll just use lirc and install a serial port reciever.  So I built a serial port reciever and went about installing lirc.  Well it turned out I needed to recompile the kernel, and then create the character device link for the reciever.  Last time I checked there were several well supported ir recievers for windows and none require any more effort than pluging them in and installing a driver.

My favorite thing is that I brought my pc in to work to install mandrake and did so with no problems.  Then I brought it home and plugged it in and the monitor settings in my XF86Config file were not compatible with my monitor at home so it just said "out of scan range" when I booted it.  It was no problem for me to fix, but how would a newbie feel?  Most people would probably expect their computer to work on any monitor without any problem.  My windows pc does.

As far as look and feel goes, Windows XP and a newish version of linux with KDE or Gnome are both fine and equally easy to use I think.  Most newb type people don't have any problems using my linux machine.

My point is this.. In day to day usage and upon initial installation, windows xp and linux with a nice window manager are probably about equal in useability.  But anytime you want to modify your pc hardware in linux, you had better know what the hell you are doing.

For the record I will say that my Linux machine is more stable than my windows machine.  That is, it has only crashed once in the last 3 month timespan and my windows xp box has crashed twice.

I don't play games on my pc's much so I don't have much comment about that.

Hopefully someday hardware vendors will support linux from the start.  And hopefully the plug and play hardware capabilities of linux will improve to the level that windows has.  But until that day comes I cannot say to a complete newb that Linux is "easier" than Windows.

Just my 2 cents.





Title: Windows 98
Post by: HumanClay on June 26, 2003, 09:26:31 AM

 
QUOTE
Why pick one over the other because you "think it is easier". Easy is not always better!


I never said Windows is better. I said it is easier to learn.

If everything can be done so easily with a GUI...why is it that I keep seeing people in tutorials saying do this and that in the command prompt? And yes I have used Linux before.

QUOTE
What is with everyone saying that everything is "command prompt" driven? Sure, there is a powerful shell behind the OS, unlike Windows, but you can still do just about everything through the GUI... (Including all administrative functions).


If everything can be done so easily with a GUI...why is it that I keep seeing people in tutorials saying do this and that in the command prompt? And yes I have used Linux before.
Maybe you can do everything with the GUI, but you'd probably have to set it up to do so with command prompt first  laugh.gif




Edited by HumanClay, 26 June 2003 - 05:27 PM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: The unProfessional on June 26, 2003, 11:30:24 AM

 Good lord... just let people use what they wish.  

If they feel windows is "better" for reasons X, Y, and Z, fine.  
If they feel Linux is "better" for reasons A, B, and C, fine.  

("better" is a wildcard... easier/more powerful/etc/who cares)

Stop trying to make people feel dumb because they prefer apples to oranges.  Seems like this argument REALLY stands the test of time -- but never goes anywhere.




Edited by The unProfessional, 26 June 2003 - 07:31 PM.


Title: Windows 98
Post by: TB_88 on June 26, 2003, 12:49:02 PM

 This is my experience with linux: (ON PC)

1.Downloaded Best Linux 2000
2. ran the installation fine it was a easy setup...
3. I got good res 1024x768 I tried to chage it and looked everywhere, stupid me it's not windows...
4. Downlaoded quake 3 demo
5. DOuble clicked on it... nothing happened
6. after 1h i checked the file size it was like 4kb wrong so i redownlaoded it and now the install started and i was woho!!!
7. After install i got shortcuts auto like windows COOL
8. Tried to start it and there was no acceleration driver i used a tnt2 nvidia... it did detect the card in the installer..
9. went to nvidia.com downloaded the newest drivers and installed it..
10. I don't know a shit about kernels adn i just installed it and then when i restarted my OS was fucked up...
11. And how can u install a accelerator driver if u are a newb?

Windows driver is easy to install intalls and if u install wrong drivers atleast u can start the os and reinstall good drivers...

Sorry for my poor english  dry.gif




Edited by TB_88, 26 June 2003 - 08:51 PM.