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Xbox360 Forums => Xbox360 Software Forums => XNA Game Studio Express => Topic started by: Xbox-Scene on December 13, 2006, 11:06:00 PM

Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: Xbox-Scene on December 13, 2006, 11:06:00 PM
XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Posted by XanTium | December 14 00:30 EST

 
Fiercedeveloper.com posted the 10 steps to start developing homebrew games for the Xbox360 with Microsoft's ('free') XNA Game Studio Express released earlier this week:
Quote

1. GET C# Express!
2. GET XNA Game Studio Express!
3. Download the XNA Framework
4. Learn C#! (here or here)
5. Check out the sample programs!
6. Learn XNA!
7. Learn more XNA!
8. Make Pong!
9. Look at sample code! (from xnaspot.com, xbox360homebrew.com or xnaresources.com)
10. Join the Creator Club to get your game onto the xBOX!

Full Story: fiercedeveloper.com

Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: sbmd on December 13, 2006, 10:29:00 PM
This is very cool.


Can't wait to see some games by people on these boards out there!!
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: vax11780 on December 13, 2006, 10:33:00 PM
Ahhh... C#.... MS's own homebrew object oriented language...

I always like to understand the corporate reasoning behind such things. Was C# the result of MS getting their asses handed to the by Sun? I can just imagine BG ranting and throwing chairs when informed MS couldn't "improve" Java....


Grin,
VAX
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: DJsquare on December 13, 2006, 10:36:00 PM
so does this mean home brew is coming to the 360?
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: MeanMF on December 13, 2006, 10:25:00 PM
QUOTE(vax11780 @ Dec 14 2006, 06:04 AM) View Post

I always like to understand the corporate reasoning behind such things. Was C# the result of MS getting their asses handed to the by Sun? I can just imagine BG ranting and throwing chairs when informed MS couldn't "improve" Java....

They DID "improve" Java..That's what C# is.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: XanTium on December 13, 2006, 10:38:00 PM
QUOTE(DJsquare @ Dec 14 2006, 06:07 AM) View Post

so does this mean home brew is coming to the 360?


Homebrew games? yes, if you pay MS's 99$/y Creator Club subscription. However it will still require your PC connected to your 360 ... as code will stream from PC and not run directly form 360 DVD/HD.  Maybe at a later date, MS will put the best/coolest homebrew games available on LIVE for everybody (without need for Creator Club subscription or PC).

Homebrew applications? no, XNA Game Studio Express is made to dev games ... it's not possible to make an XBMC with it or so.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: xzenor on December 13, 2006, 10:49:00 PM
WOW!!!  blink.gif  They make it sound like a complete idiot can make games. PPFFFTTT, NOT!!!
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: unclepauly on December 13, 2006, 10:58:00 PM
QUOTE(xzenor @ Dec 14 2006, 12:56 AM) View Post

WOW!!!  blink.gif  They make it sound like a complete idiot can make games. PPFFFTTT, NOT!!!


LOL!!! I seen it and was like "well, I think I'll try this out" then gave it a look see and quickly changed my attitude.  ohmy.gif  I'm sure if I dug in and put some effort towards it I might be able to make some pos game but screw that, I gots some Gears to play.  smile.gif
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: Topho on December 13, 2006, 11:48:00 PM
They make it sound WAY!!!! to easy. I ONLY wish it were that easy, but its not. I've spent the last 2 years trying to learn this stuff and its next to impossible to get anywhere. I've had zero luck.

You want to type 150 lines of code for a tree dialog structure. Yeah, me either. Alas Oh how I wish I could code and code well. (Emulators anyone?)

I've read 3 C++ books, One C book, and a half of a C# book and I have nothing (read zip) to show for it. No Surreal 2 or any other awesome homebrew. All I've got is a dos box streaming my name by me at 1,000 lines per second. Now that's coding.

This post has been edited by Topho: Dec 14 2006, 07:50 AM
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: epsilon72 on December 13, 2006, 11:17:00 PM
QUOTE(xzenor @ Dec 13 2006, 10:56 PM) View Post
WOW!!!  blink.gif  They make it sound like a complete idiot can make games. PPFFFTTT, NOT!!!


rotfl.gif

If it's only 10 steps it must be easy! laugh.gif
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: Gohan5052 on December 14, 2006, 12:10:00 AM
you dont have to have it connected to ur pc at all times its only whe youre playing a new build or playing it for the first time after that you can just access it from the hd
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: ILLusions0fGrander on December 14, 2006, 12:12:00 AM
pretty cool either way.. cant wait to see some skills.

now from what Xant said, does that mean only the people who pay can play them, or create them, both?

because id be a little less than excited if people made some really cool homebrew i cant play.

Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: PedrosPad on December 14, 2006, 12:56:00 AM
Regarding distribution for XNA homebrew...
Distributing XNA title binaries appears to have been made deliberately challenging  dry.gif, but nothing prevents you simply zipping, uploading, and hosting your XNA title sources on a web site (X-S could start an area  wink.gif Strike that - SourceForge would be a more appropriate host) for other XNA users to download, compile, and execute, and enjoy  smile.gif .  No IP protection, but your work can be enjoyed by others without M$'s involvement  (i.e. The OpenSource distribution model  biggrin.gif ).

NB: No doubt C# source code obfuscation tools appear to temporarily address the IP issue.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: jizmo on December 14, 2006, 01:36:00 AM
If they really wanted to give people an easy chance of coding their own games, MS could've just put in a flash player. It's much easier to get anything up and running with it and x360 would've easily have the power to run even graphically intensive flash games.

This way they kind of give you a chance, but make it too cumbersome and expensive to anyone to try out.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: PedrosPad on December 14, 2006, 01:21:00 AM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Dec 14 2006, 10:07 AM) View Post

If they really wanted to give people an easy chance of coding their own games, MS could've just put in a flash player. It's much easier to get anything up and running with it and x360 would've easily have the power to run even graphically intensive flash games.

Althrough I understand your view, I believe one of M$ goals is to encourage the next breed of programmers to use it's toolset.  These are already more job openings for C# .NET skills than for Flash skills.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: HoRnEyDvL on December 14, 2006, 02:27:00 AM
Hmm i wonder id anyone will be able to code up apps to read the hdd & dvd key & possibly get some system info about the 360?
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: pholly on December 14, 2006, 04:48:00 AM
QUOTE(PedrosPad @ Dec 14 2006, 09:28 AM) View Post

Althrough I understand your view, I believe one of M$ goals is to encourage the next breed of programmers to use it's toolset.  These are already more job openings for C# .NET skills than for Flash skills.


If that's the case shouldn't this be free biggrin.gif  I still don't understand why we have to pay for this, it should be free IMO but whatever.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: The Zep Man on December 14, 2006, 05:01:00 AM
QUOTE(pholly @ Dec 14 2006, 12:55 PM) View Post

If that's the case shouldn't this be free biggrin.gif  I still don't understand why we have to pay for this, it should be free IMO but whatever.
I guess you have never heard of the 'art of reading'...

Programming in C# is 'free', compiling it with their compiler is 'free', even using it on your own PC is 'free'. The only thing that is not 'free' is running it on your Xbox 360, which is just a nice gimmick and more of an accessories for the Xbox 360 instead of an essential part of the programming suite. That's why it costs money.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: twistedsymphony on December 14, 2006, 05:25:00 AM
I guess I'm already up to step #6

A co-worker and I downloaded the beta a while back when that came out... it's really quite simple to work with (well as simple as programming can be without severely limiting you).

We might actually make a game if we could actually find the time.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: riemerg on December 14, 2006, 05:43:00 AM
Sure, you need some basic programming skills before you can start making your first game. That is, you need to know what a for-loop does and what an if-structure is used for.

But the days that you had to write 300+ lines of code to display a triangle have long since gone. That's the whole idea behind XNA: it's in fact a wrapper around DirectX, that allows you to program games with ease. You no longer need to write code for setting up your screen (or a window, on the pc), you can start coding on your game from the first minute.

I've written my series of XNA tutorials so anyone with basic programming skills (no pointers or other advanced stuff) can finish them. It's number 7 in the list at the top of this page, so you first need to download the free Game Express Studio. Why don't you give them a try, and if you got some ideas for improvements/additional explanation, let me know!

http://www.riemers.n...g_a_project.php
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: bonevichio on December 14, 2006, 06:39:00 AM
QUOTE(TechPagan @ Dec 14 2006, 02:18 PM) View Post

Sounds like riemerg is a fan boy or works for M$.  Maybe even Bill himself...hi Bill!!!  Everyone make sure you let Bill know your ideas for improvemnts because M$ always listens to us.  Maybe you can send you comments with the error logs XP (and Vista btw) generates and asks to be sent to M$ on a daily basis.  (Sorry if I sound bitter.  Just my two cents)


Did you really just sign up on the forum to post this crap?

Thanks for the tutorial riemerg!  A step in the right direction.

Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: MeanMF on December 14, 2006, 07:22:00 AM
11.  ???
12.  Profit!
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: lowendfrequency on December 14, 2006, 07:53:00 AM
So easy, even a caveman can do it! biggrin.gif

IPB Image
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: PCBUILDERCHRIS on December 14, 2006, 09:13:00 AM
if we could do this to 360 everone will want one remember back in the day when sony lied and said thet that extra port on the back of the ps (very first one) was for an extension to make your own games well 360 could knock sony off the block with this

c'mon microsoft let this happen and change gaming forever then people will be making games as demos and trying to get signed to game studios like a record label
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: openxdkman on December 14, 2006, 10:50:00 AM
Most xna games you will find on internet will crash, show a black screen, have a too small window or not respond to your favorite joypad. It's quite depressing at first...

I've explained how to fix these problems (but you need game source for that, not many give it away) in this same forum (to see the posts, just click on "XNA Game Studio Express Forum" link at top of this page, then see the post "Spacewar starter kit (patches)").

Have fun...
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: TechPagan on December 14, 2006, 12:28:00 PM
No, I've been planing on signing up for a while his post just gave me an excuse.  If I seemed to harsh or full of $hit than I do appoligize.  I have a great respect for the opinion of bonevichio you are one of my favorite posters (my migrane meds were wearing off so I get pissy).  I'm just sick of chasing the bones microsoft is throwing AT us.  If they are going to let us create our own games but limit the functionality of the hardware whats the point.  They are just inviting us to modify their code illegaly (I don't condone this btw) to gain the functionality we want.  At least they didn't go as far as Sony's limits to the hardware.  Not allowing access to the RSX is BS.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: Mad-Man-666 on December 14, 2006, 02:18:00 PM
ive been waiting for this.

i dont really see why they would limit what we can do with the games. but it is M$
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: cowsn on December 14, 2006, 04:09:00 PM
yea, im pumped to make some sick games.  anyone know if u can make networked games? including xbox and pc can playing together?

lol, i cant wait for xbox 360 homebrew viruses tongue.gif
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: crobar on December 15, 2006, 08:09:00 AM
i wish i actually had time for this....
i've done some little pieces of game "code" in flash...but i barley had time to do  that....
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: twistedsymphony on December 15, 2006, 08:53:00 AM
I think a good first XNA app would be a flash player... though I'm fairly certain MS has already made one... isn't that what Hexic runs on?
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: crobar on December 15, 2006, 09:44:00 AM
yeah i think so...but in order to make one yourself you would either need a licsence from adobe/macromedia or the open source files that are floating around...ope source wouldn't cut it i don't think.
what would be cool is if micro soft offered the plug-in as part of the package...
either way id love to get into c#
all i need is time lol
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: edwinmcdunlap on December 15, 2006, 01:40:00 PM
Someone should port XBMC
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: terezin on December 16, 2006, 06:02:00 PM
Knowing entirely nothing about XNA programming i ask this question.

Can someone make a Xvid / Divx player ??

What sort of Appz can be made using this system, are there any restrictions?

It would be sweet if we could play all media types.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: PedrosPad on December 17, 2006, 02:49:00 PM
QUOTE(terezin @ Dec 17 2006, 03:09 AM) View Post

Knowing entirely nothing about XNA programming i ask this question.

Can someone make a Xvid / Divx player ??

What sort of Appz can be made using this system, are there any restrictions?

It would be sweet if we could play all media types.

This question is a very fair one and one that is going to keep coming up in one form or another for a good while.

Microsoft .NET languages (which include C#) compile down to a byte code rather than true CPU machine language.  This byte code is then interpreted by an engine when executed.

Due to the overhead of interpretation, this form of code can not execute as fast as native machine code.

Further more, the runtime engine – that performs the byte code interpretation – also limits what actions are permissible.  These restrictions include direct/uncontrolled access to memory – such as video memory, sound chip access, etc.

These characteristics of the runtime environment restrict possible applications.  The processing of DivX codecs, etc. typically need to run at full speed (to maintain the video frame rate), and achieve this by unencumbered direct access to video and sound chips.

So an XBMC clone implemented using XNA/C# is very unlikely.  That said, if the hardware is up to it, and interpretation fast enough, surprises can happen.  Emulators of old consoles work along similar lines to that described above (as does the X360’s XBOX1 backwards compatibility to an extent) and they achieve in software what the original consoles used to rely on custom chips to perform.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: Cixus on December 18, 2006, 03:07:00 AM
QUOTE(PedrosPad @ Dec 17 2006, 10:56 PM) View Post

Microsoft .NET languages (which include C#) compile down to a byte code rather than true CPU machine language.  This byte code is then interpreted by an engine when executed.

Due to the overhead of interpretation, this form of code can not execute as fast as native machine code.

Further more, the runtime engine – that performs the byte code interpretation – also limits what actions are permissible.  These restrictions include direct/uncontrolled access to memory – such as video memory, sound chip access, etc.

These characteristics of the runtime environment restrict possible applications.  The processing of DivX codecs, etc. typically need to run at full speed (to maintain the video frame rate), and achieve this by unencumbered direct access to video and sound chips.


I agree with you on that bytecode languages runs slower than machine code, but do we know how the 360 runs the code? Since the XNA developers are probably quite familiar with the x360's cpu (is it Xerxes or something?) and should be able to optimize it as good as possible.
Another thing, isn't XNA based on DirectX instructions and SDK? In that case there shouldn't be that big difference in performance beetween XNA games/"apps" and retail games.
But I guess we'll have to wait until they implement video playback in the framework, which seems likely, at least if you check their database for feature suggestions: https://connect.micr...aspx?SiteID=226 (Registration required, search for Xna or something like that)
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: PedrosPad on December 18, 2006, 06:05:00 AM
QUOTE(Cixus @ Dec 18 2006, 12:14 PM) View Post

I agree with you on that bytecode languages runs slower than machine code, but do we know how the 360 runs the code? Since the XNA developers are probably quite familiar with the x360's cpu (is it Xerxes or something?) and should be able to optimize it as good as possible.
Another thing, isn't XNA based on DirectX instructions and SDK? In that case there shouldn't be that big difference in performance beetween XNA games/"apps" and retail games.
But I guess we'll have to wait until they implement video playback in the framework, which seems likely, at least if you check their database for feature suggestions: https://connect.micr...aspx?SiteID=226 (Registration required, search for Xna or something like that)

Agreed - but is "as good as possible" good enough for XBMC?  I suspect that XBMC is one of the (if not the) most demanding applications on the XBOX1 (in terms of constant data throughput) (more so than most games).

If/when M$ add video playback to the framework, it'll be limited to a WMV codec, that has the video/audio stream already prepared in the most appropriate/efficient manner for playback – not the wide variety of formats/codecs that make XBMC such a jewel.

(Of course, following the recent Dashboard update, the X360 can already playback back *.WMV video files from CD/DVD, negating the need for an XBMC with that restriction).
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: Supaninja on December 28, 2006, 05:14:00 AM
if i could make my own game with xna ,burn to a disc  and run directly in my 360, that would be great...
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: highbomber on January 27, 2007, 08:49:00 PM
QUOTE(MeanMF @ Dec 14 2006, 03:29 PM) View Post

11.  ???
12.  Profit!


Heh, South Park.

For those that are having a hard time learning C#, try learning Visual Basic first. It is much more user friendly and teaches rookies complicated structures but in an almost english language. It is the first computer language I learned.
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: Caddenmods on February 02, 2007, 03:46:00 PM
Hi guys.

Would it be possible for a complete programming noob to learn this, and actually make a semi decent game?

I am very interested in the possibility.

My brother when he was eight mastered programming a spectrum Z80 or whatever it was, now he is a very respected programmer.

God damn it should be in my blood. biggrin.gif

Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: MattyT on February 03, 2007, 03:44:00 AM
QUOTE(Caddenmods @ Feb 2 2007, 10:53 PM) View Post

Hi guys.

Would it be possible for a complete programming noob to learn this, and actually make a semi decent game?

I am very interested in the possibility.

My brother when he was eight mastered programming a spectrum Z80 or whatever it was, now he is a very respected programmer.

God damn it should be in my blood. biggrin.gif


haha, Its a great way to start  biggrin.gif
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: clevx on February 26, 2007, 07:52:00 PM
QUOTE(Topho @ Dec 13 2006, 10:19 PM) *

They make it sound WAY!!!! to easy. I ONLY wish it were that easy, but its not. I've spent the last 2 years trying to learn this stuff and its next to impossible to get anywhere. I've had zero luck.

You want to type 150 lines of code for a tree dialog structure. Yeah, me either. Alas Oh how I wish I could code and code well. (Emulators anyone?)

I've read 3 C++ books, One C book, and a half of a C# book and I have nothing (read zip) to show for it. No Surreal 2 or any other awesome homebrew. All I've got is a dos box streaming my name by me at 1,000 lines per second. Now that's coding.


OMG!!  I feel the same way!  It's like you sit there for hours coding, you compile it and run it, and you got a nice little interactive TEXT game with virtually no graphics (maybe a frame or window, etc...)..

Eck!  I'd love to be able to do it seriously though!
Title: XNA: Make your own Xbox360 games in 10 steps
Post by: machineman9 on April 15, 2007, 05:39:00 AM
i cant wait to try this... i hope it wont be too hard, ive been learning C++ for a bit and it seems quite similar. Do you need to buy anything to get it to work (except PC/X360/controller)?