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Off Topic Forums => General Chat => Politics, News and Religion => Topic started by: HSDEMONZ on March 31, 2004, 04:43:00 PM

Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 31, 2004, 04:43:00 PM
Not Quite Xbox News.. but...
>> NEWS RELEASE
March 31, 2004
Ottawa, Ontario

CIPPIC lauds court decision protecting Internet privacy

Ottawa – In a victory for the privacy rights of Canadians, the Federal Court today denied the music industry's request for Internet Service Providers to disclose the identity of subscribers alleged to have infringed copyright law.

"This is a strong affirmation of privacy rights." said Philippa Lawson, Executive Director of the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic (CIPPIC), who intervened in the case. "The court's decision sends a powerful message to those who seek to uncover the identities of ISP subscribers in order to sue them. Don't try it, unless you have clear evidence of wrongdoing and can make a reliable link between that activity and a specific individual."

The Canadian Recording Industry Association (CRIA) had relied on a rule which compelled disclosure but not creation of documents which did not already exist. At the hearing, several ISPs had noted that they had no business case to keep the kind of information the music industry sought and that to do so would be inconvenient and costly.

Justice von Finckenstein ruled that CRIA had failed to make out a "prima facie" case of copyright infringement by any of the 29 defendants, noting that CRIA's affidavit evidence was deficient, and that CRIA had failed to make a causal link between alleged filesharers' Kazaa usernames and specific IP addresses. More importantly, the court ruled that merely downloading and placing music files on a shared directory does not constitute copyright infringement under Canadian law.

Given the absence of clear evidence of infringement and the serious possibility of an innocent account holder being identified, the Court found that it would be irresponsible to order the disclosure of subscriber identities.

"This is victory for new technology and the Internet, and for the rights of users of new technology in Canada", said Howard Knopf, who acted as CIPPIC's lead counsel in the case. "It is now abundantly clear, if it was not before, that downloading songs from the Internet for personal use and merely making them available to others is not infringement of copyright in Canada. The Court has followed the recent decision of the Supreme Court of Canada and held that P2P users are not 'authorizing' infringement simply by placing a personal copy of a file on a shared directory."

This decision comes on the heels of yesterday's release of a study finding that online music sharing does not clearly affect CD sales (see www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf). "Even if they had the law on their side, the record industry's claims that P2P file-sharing are hurting it financially are now being seriously challenged", said Lawson.


Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 31, 2004, 03:20:00 PM
What are your thought on this issue?
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: pecmoney on March 31, 2004, 04:53:00 PM
This is great...........The U.S. and Canada pretty much have the same law structer and policies regarding this matter....all we need now is for a Judge to state that it is unlawful in the U.S. to do this also and we are on our way to freedom:)
Victory Victory :jester:
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 31, 2004, 03:31:00 PM
I'm not happy for what this means to the authors and musicians.. however.. as an ISP user.. I am glad that the ISP will not be compelled to collect more info on us then they already do.
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: phrozenfeonix on March 31, 2004, 03:08:00 PM
thsi topic reminds me of one of the best southpark episodes ever, where cartman and the guys start a band and to get inspirational music, they go onto the internet and the FBI comes and brings them around, poor britney spears cant buy herself a new airplane this month rotfl.gif
The musicians make so much money that it shouldn't affect them, and those that dont make as much money get their music heard, so only groups like sony are missing out. which brings me to the real issue at heart, doesn't sony produce some of the leading burners and blank media? why should they be against it fi they're part of the source?
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: jsm on March 31, 2004, 06:00:00 PM
What is really funny :
We already pay fees on blank cd-r's, fees that are given to organizations representing record companies. Fee that allows us to freely download (download only!) music. From : http://www.ccfda.ca/subsections/eng_faqs.html
QUOTE
The levies are collected by the Canadian Private Copying Collective (CPCC), which is responsible for distributing the money to organizations representing record companies, producers, and others who own the rights to copyrighted material. Since the regime was established in December 1999, the CPCC has collected over $54 million in levies. According to an article in the Globe and Mail on February 26, 2003, only $6.8 million has been dispersed to copyright holders to date.

Ok so all the money we (canadians) pay in cdr taxes is given back to our own industry, what does this mean ? It means that when I (being in canada) legally download music from an American artist by paying the cd-r fee, I actually give all the money back to canada. The american artist gets nothing. :lol:

P.S. the levy is $.77 on media that are labelled "CD-R Audio", and only $.21 on data CD-Rs. (Canadian cents that is)


About the ruling :

QUOTE
More importantly, the court ruled that merely downloading and placing music files on a shared directory does not constitute copyright infringement under Canadian law.

Yep it's exactly what it says, I can download legally thanks to my fees and "plac[e] music files on a shared directory" because it is not considered distribution, unlike uploading to ftp or sending directly to someone. :rotfl:


Man even though I am not born in Canada, I am very glad to have chosen this country to live. :)

Edit: Reminds me of dishnetwork and directv, wich are illegal in canada, that is actually illegal to sell the system but no to have it, there is no fine for having one and no one takes it from you. :jester:  

This post has been edited by jsm on Apr 1 2004, 02:08 AM
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 31, 2004, 04:54:00 PM
(IMG:http://canflag.ptbcanadian.com/images/animated/waving/canadaa.gif)
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: Softco Industries on March 31, 2004, 04:30:00 PM
Yes!  Another point for Canada!  I love living in this country!!!   laugh.gif  laugh.gif
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: geniusalz on March 31, 2004, 04:41:00 PM
QUOTE (HSDEMONZ @ Mar 31 2004, 09:18 PM)
user posted image

 pop.gif
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: tareqsattar on March 31, 2004, 07:10:00 PM
:beer:

'blame canada' anyone ?  :lol:
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: rastareaper on March 31, 2004, 06:34:00 PM
so this means i can legally share files in kazaa now?
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 31, 2004, 08:21:00 PM
QUOTE (rastareaper @ Mar 31 2004, 10:58 PM)
so this means i can legally share files in kazaa now?

 That is determined how you interpret the current copyright laws.. and this new ruling.

I'm just glad that the ISP's aren't required to document more than they already do.  To much of our online travles and actions are documented.
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: ylsf on March 31, 2004, 07:10:00 PM
I hope Canada isn't pressured into changing its copyright laws now.  Basically, what the judge said was that it was his interpretation of the law.  Judges can't make "new" law and have to enforce existing law.  He made the comparison to the photocopy machine in a library which was quite interesting..A library should not be liable for someone using a photocopy machine to photocopy copywritten material (which is most of the material in a library I imagine)!!
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: mamajo on March 31, 2004, 06:37:00 PM
QUOTE
   What is really funny :
We already pay fees on blank cd-r's, fees that are given to organizations representing record companies. Fee that allows us to freely download (download only!) music. From : http://www.ccfda.ca/...s/eng_faqs.html


P.S. the levy is $.77 on media that are labelled "CD-R Audio", and only $.21 on data CD-Rs. (Canadian cents that is)




Ya you will be paying that levy if your are foolish enough to buy your media at Walmart, Futureshop, or any other big name store.
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: rastareaper on March 31, 2004, 06:39:00 PM
QUOTE (mamajo @ Apr 1 2004, 04:37 AM)

Ya you will be paying that levy if your are foolish enough to buy your media at Walmart, Futureshop, or any other big name store.

heh heh i buy my blank cds in the u.s  laugh.gif
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: brahm2 on March 31, 2004, 06:46:00 PM
blink.gif
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: shavedrat on March 31, 2004, 07:07:00 PM
dry.gif

I dont know whether you should be busting the downloader or the uploader. I believe the majority of the uploaders on kazaa are just people who are too computer illiterate to disable the sharing. So basically you're catching the noobs tongue.gif. On the other hand, it would be difficult to catch a downloader, unless you'd like track them or something. I dont think you'd have much of a lawsuit with a person who just downloaded 1 song, opposed to someone holding 8000 songs.

Another thing I noticed was that some cd labels dropped their prices by roughly 5$ here in canada.  I thought this was a great idea to encourage people to buy the already overpriced music, however, if they can afford to lower it that much, are they really 'losing' that much money at their original price?  dry.gif Whats the money ratio? 18$ to the label, 2$ to the artist?

Personally, I hate to hear rockstars whine about piracy. Bands like metallica can kiss my ass. They whined about people on napster downloading their music and sent a 26 page list of users to be banned.  They say theyre losing millions, but then 5 mins later they're bragging about their wonderful rockstar life. Get hammered every night, get laid, do some hardcore drugs and party all the time. Whoo! I feel for ya buddy.  Most of us work our asses off make no money and then spend the little we have saved so some fat guy can wipe his ass with silk toilet paper.  What's that? You only have 37 million? My heart aches.


EDIT: No one noticed the wise wording for the topic title? No I will not be fingered for music.
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: IndieSnob on March 31, 2004, 09:01:00 PM
I think it's great news for Canadians rights. I beleive whole heartedly in privacy and with every day gone by, we lose more and more, especially here in the states.

As for as how it effects the artists, I think Canada has a great system setup with how there's taxes on blank media that are distributed, doesn't seem to high, and benefits everyone. I think there's a slight amount of money that they make here in the states off of music branded cdr's, but I could be wrong.

As far as artists like Metallica and the likes bitching about others downloading, I'm of two minds. While they do have it well and don't need the extra money, it is still their property and doesn't give anyone the right to download it. I'm not saying I don't agree with those that download, but I don't think it's right, it's a big catch 22. I just find it funny how Metallica says they're in it for the love of music, but yet their show here last Sunday set people back $55 to $85 for tickets, that's absolutely outrageous. 99% of the music I listen to is on independent labels, who charge very reasonable wholesale prices to retailers so that we as fans don't pay an arm and a leg. The musicians and labels need to stop trying to look at the sales number and instead find other ways to create fans, and one way to do that is not have artists that have one hit song and absolute filler shit on the rest of the album, I think that makes alot more people liable to download just the one song. Who wants to pay $18.99 for that one hit single? (Though I don't care, I don't even want that one hot single.)
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: Shaolin23 on April 01, 2004, 04:26:00 AM
love.gif Ah Canada, I love you so.
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: GameDTX on April 01, 2004, 06:55:00 AM
Ah, is these times i'm actually greatfull for being a canadian.
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: GameDTX on April 01, 2004, 07:00:00 AM
QUOTE (brahm2 @ Apr 1 2004, 04:46 AM)
I heard on CBC

 laugh.gif dude u watch cbc LOL
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: miklos on April 01, 2004, 09:07:00 AM
QUOTE (GameDTX @ Apr 1 2004, 04:00 PM)
laugh.gif dude u watch cbc LOL


CBC has several radio channels...
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: miklos on April 01, 2004, 09:12:00 AM
Nobody mentioned: it is not just the CD levy we pay here in Canada...

If you buy and mp3 player - there is an MP3 fee on it too. That fee depends on capacity, an can be 30-40 dollars for a hard-drive based player...

Stores like RadioShack actually advertise the price often without the levy for mp3 players, and there is a little asterisk next to the price. In small print they mention, that the asterisk means that the additional mp3 levy applies in addition to the price of the unit...

So you could argue whether downloading is OK or not, but we Canadians do pay for the RIGHT to be able to download...

And that was the position of the Canadian courts all along - the decision today just repeats what was said again and again: downloading is legal... ( and my comment: of course it is, since we pay for it...).

I really liked the example the judge used: he compared downloading to having a photocopier in a library. All books in a library are copyrighted - still, you can make photocopies. Why is that not illegal?

Just my two cents...
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: Col.Havoc on April 01, 2004, 01:08:00 PM
QUOTE (miklos @ Apr 1 2004, 03:12 PM)
Nobody mentioned: it is not just the CD levy we pay here in Canada...

If you buy and mp3 player - there is an MP3 fee on it too. That fee depends on capacity, an can be 30-40 dollars for a hard-drive based player...

Stores like RadioShack actually advertise the price often without the levy for mp3 players, and there is a little asterisk next to the price. In small print they mention, that the asterisk means that the additional mp3 levy applies in addition to the price of the unit...

So you could argue whether downloading is OK or not, but we Canadians do pay for the RIGHT to be able to download...

And that was the position of the Canadian courts all along - the decision today just repeats what was said again and again: downloading is legal... ( and my comment: of course it is, since we pay for it...).

I really liked the example the judge used: he compared downloading to having a photocopier in a library. All books in a library are copyrighted - still, you can make photocopies. Why is that not illegal?

Just my two cents...

I completely agree.

Also, this is my opinion on this too:

You buy a movie/music cd and you watch it and of course like it. Say your friend wants to borrow it for a while. You paid for it which goes to whoever, lets say the producer, writer, artist, etc. Now, your friend has it, he doesn't pay a cent for it and the producer/writer/artist/whatever doens't see a a cent from it, where is this any different?
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: HSDEMONZ on April 01, 2004, 01:12:00 PM
QUOTE
I really liked the example the judge used: he compared downloading to having a photocopier in a library. All books in a library are copyrighted - still, you can make photocopies. Why is that not illegal?


Interesting you mention the photocopier...

It was only just recently.. that Canada started allowing us to photocopy more than just a sample of a book. (IE a few relevant pages)

Law Society of Canada I believe.. fought for the right to photocopy entire TEXTS. (pissing off the publishers to no end)

I'm not sure if the libraries still have notices bitching about copyright etc in regards to their books.  They did years ago when I was in high school and college though.
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: jsrlepage on April 01, 2004, 06:28:00 PM
I am a separatist from quebec.

BUT FOR ONCE,

I am proud to be a Canadian.
Title: Canada: Isps Will Not Be Fingering Users For Music
Post by: tareqsattar on April 01, 2004, 09:01:00 PM
biggrin.gif