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Author Topic: Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?  (Read 521 times)

PedrosPad

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2006, 04:32:41 AM »


My 2 cents of speculation.

But at the Game Developers Conference here today, the rumor is that MS plans on announcing tomorrow a developers kit that would make it possible for anyone to build games for the console, or for PCs, and that the kit will cost only about $100.


The XNA Framework contains a custom implementation of the MS. .NET Framework and new game-development-specific libraries designed to help game developers more easily create cross-platform games on Windows and Xbox 360 using the highly productive C# programming language.

So we know M$ are putting an implementation of the .NET CLR on X360!  This�ll be delivered in an update via XBL.  I recon the 'devkit' will be a collection of C# X360 libraries for use with M$'s Visual Studio product.  Since .NET code is 'managed code' there is little to no security risk.

The .NET assemblies will be able to be put on a USB connected storage device (Hard disk, KeyDrive, etc.) for local testing on your X360, and could, optionally, be submitted to M$ for eventual publication on XBL.  M$ already has strong .NET automatic code checking tools that it uses for it's current M$ certification program.

Yup.  That fits with the promises within the two articles. biggrin.gif

This strategy will expose a whole new upcoming generation of budding engineers to M$'s own .NET & C# languages, who will eventually feed into the job market, broadening M$'s foothold and assuring that their technologies and toolsets dominate. biggrin.gif




Edited by PedrosPad, 22 March 2006 - 02:08 PM.


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The Bat

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2006, 05:52:54 AM »


My 2 cents of speculation.
So we know M$ are putting an implementation of the .NET CLR on X360!  This�ll be delivered in an update via XBL.  I recon the 'devkit' will be a collection of C# X360 libraries for use with M$'s Visual Studio product.  Since .NET code is 'managed code' there is little to no security risk.

The .NET assemblies will be able to be put on a USB connected storage device (Hard disk, KeyDrive, etc.) for local testing on your X360, and could, optionally, be submitted to M$ for eventual publication on XBL.  M$ already has strong .NET automatic code checking tools that it uses for it's current M$ certification program.

Yup.  That fits with the promises within the two articles. biggrin.gif

This strategy will expose a whole new upcoming generation of budding engineers to M$'s own .NET & C# languages, who will eventually feed into the job market, broadening M$'s foothold and assuring that their technologies and toolsets dominate. biggrin.gif


That's pretty much what I was thinking when I wrote my response earlier in this thread.  This kit would be supporting XNA, and testing on a 360 would be done by compiling it for a PC, and seeing if it works on a PC, before using the kit to compile an XEX (for submitting to MS) which should work.  But you'd still need regular programming tools (like Visual Studio and C#) for creating the code.

I'm pretty sure that Live requires a seperate license, so this kit would be for titles that are strictly solo play and use over a LAN.  And distribution might be over the XBox Live Marketplace, with the submitter having to pay a fee to add it on and with a certain number of dollars of each download going to MS, with the submitter specifying whatever price above that they want.

The hope for both would be getting the next Tetris -- a title which is technically surpassed by almost every other title but popular anyways -- which would earn wealth and recognition for the programmers and popularity for the 360.

My guesses, anyways.  Maybe I'd be better off guessing the weather or something.




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zX_Storm

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2006, 07:53:57 AM »


My opinion on this is that M$ will create a framework/game application that runs our "homebrew" with these limited capibilities. They won't let us interact with other games, create kernel-level software, or other things. This is, if they do, in fact, release a cheaper dev kit. Since we obviously can't put our own DVD-R's in the system to run these because the media flag, a program they make would have to allow it run when it detects a DVD-R in the system, and that parent program is always controlling it. Kind of reminds me of LUA. Make's sense to me.




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twistedsymphony

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2006, 08:46:52 AM »


I agree with PedrosPad and The Bat... X360 extensions for current coding environment, and a semi-emulator to run this on a PC for testing before MS certification. It'd be cool if it included a wired controller too  wink.gif

No where does the definition of a developers kits state that you have to be able to run your code on the actual hardware.

I love how everyone automatically applies this to homebrew and "MS will limit our abilities" blah blah blah... as if they were going to somehow give us a way to test this stuff on a retail console.  laugh.gif

They can give use fully functional software for $100 without worrying about big name devs feeling cheaped out because big name devs got development hardware to test their own builds... THATS the limitation.

Innovative games are a dying breed in today gaming industry, if you make it easier for indy devs to get into the game you open the door to a whole lot more innovation. Which means more game sales (and $$ through MS licensing) and thus more consoles sales which means more game sales, etc, etc, etc...

I'm not the greatest programmer in the world but I've got visual studio and if I can snag a kit for $100 that comes with the appropriate extensions and some kind of emulation layer for testing, I'm all over that like a hobo on a ham sandwich.

----------

If you DO want to apply this to homebrew then it DOES help that too
On the Xbox 1 the bios images are illegal because they're based off of MS's own bioses and thus pirated software. We also can't distribute XBEs because our homebrew stuff can only be compiled with rogue XDKs (again pirated) making their compiled results also considered pirated/illegal.

If the XDKs can be had for $100 that means the homebrew apps, which might never be distributed or authorized by MS would potentially be freely distributed in compiled form since we would be able to compile them with actual licensed XDKs. To run them the console would still need to be modified to run unsigned code. However if we were to determine a legal method of doing that (legal bios/firmware/what have you) then it would completely legitimize 360 homebrew.

Not to mention the XNA can supposedly be used to make Xbox 1 titles, which means... we could potentially see a legal XBE for XBMC if this kit delivers what it's supposed to.

All that aside, we don't know what kind of legal restrictions or agreements you might be required to sign to get one of these XDKs... but I can't see this being anything more then an overall good for the industry and Xbox enthusiasts.





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PedrosPad

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2006, 09:12:41 AM »


No where does the definition of a developers kits state that you have to be able to run your code on the actual hardware.

I love how everyone automatically applies this to homebrew and "MS will limit our abilities" blah blah blah... as if they were going to somehow give us a way to test this stuff on a retail console.  laugh.gif

They can give use fully functional software for $100 without worrying about big name devs feeling cheaped out because big name devs got development hardware to test their own builds... THATS the limitation.


I see your points, and they're good ones...but reading:
But at the Game Developers Conference here today, the rumor is that MS plans on announcing tomorrow a developers kit that would make it possible for anyone to build games for the console, or for PCs, and that the kit will cost only about $100.

The quote and the price point kind'a got Sony's Yaroze kit in my mind, and that M$ were after the same audience.  It could be done.  IIRC Student editions of Visual Studio are available.  Combine that with the extra $100 cost of a CD of X360 libs, and you're away.
The .NET assemblies will be able to be put on a USB connected storage device (Hard disk, KeyDrive, etc.) for local testing on your X360.

But I suspect I�m dreaming. smile.gif

Another worring thought is it could be Macromedia Flash-based.  "You've seen what HexicHD can do.  Now you too can write your own games for X360".  Yuck!  ohmy.gif




Edited by PedrosPad, 22 March 2006 - 06:19 PM.


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pcrat

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2006, 12:00:07 PM »


They finally realized letting us create the games WE want since WE are the gammers.
its tough sometimes playing a game, and u wish this was in there instead of that, or walk/run this way,instead of there way.
OF course we all look at games and see theres something we would like in the game to make it better.
we make the games, and yes they go to MS to be checked, and if pass, then they send it off and get the disc signed etc.

I do think they will let us do certan things, But for the legitamate  dev's out there that would create a  good game and not a game with a bunch of cheats in it to play onlive, that only a handfull of people would know, but then again that would make the game worthless and noone would buy it. basically the same as halo 2,
on that note, i do hope someone makes a game that blows halo out of the water.

But hey is MS, god forbid they let the "gammers" have control of they do and know best!




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deadparrot

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2006, 01:12:36 PM »


I think this may have been said elsewhere in this thread, but I feel it needs to be highlighted better (It was said somewhat in passing):

There will be no more chance of a vunerablity in this then MS wants to put in.

That goes without saying, and yes, it has been said several times.

QUOTE

They just run it in a sandbox enviroment (VM360 anyone? biggrin.gif) and, as far as my meager skill can show, there's NO CHANCE of "Bad Stuff" happening.

Trying to emulate a 360 would be expensive and still crap for testing.

If it is C/C++, then this kit is probably an extension for Visual Studio, and compiles binaries to run on Windows. I think this is likely, given MSs history of giving away software to students for cheap or free so future gens depend on their products.

If it is C# or Flash, then this kit could be used to create real games that run (albeit in a virtual machine) on the Xbox.

QUOTE
Want to get out of the fance and play in the field with the big kids? Gotta pony up for a real SDK. But for many dev's this will be a dream come true. Heck, they could even implement a VPN *JUST FOR GAMES MADE* with this $100 SDK

Whaaa? Do you know what a VPN is?

QUOTE
, so there's NO CHANCE of tomfoolery, yet you can still take advantage of Xbox Live services (and just use MS's servers to make that ever needed first connection).

Who cares about Xbox Live? If we do get access to the Xbox (an I hope we do), it would likely be in a virtual machine and even if it gave access to the netowrk stack, it would not give you access to the infirmation needed to authenticate with live as a normal game.




Edited by derived, 23 March 2006 - 10:16 AM.


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'True Vox'

  • Guest
NULL
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2006, 04:54:36 PM »

'
               I think this may have been said elsewhere in this thread, but I feel it needs to be highlighted better (It was said somewhat in passing):

There will be no more chance of a vunerablity in this then MS wants to put in. They just run it in a sandbox enviroment (VM360 anyone? biggrin.gif) and, as far as my meager skill can show, there's NO CHANCE of "Bad Stuff" happening.

Want to get out of the fance and play in the field with the big kids? Gotta pony up for a real SDK. But for many dev's this will be a dream come true. Heck, they could even implement a VPN *JUST FOR GAMES MADE* with this $100 SDK, so there's NO CHANCE of tomfoolery, yet you can still take advantage of Xbox Live services (and just use MS's servers to make that ever needed first connection).

Anyone with more technical skill (read: Better then intermidiate programming in college, and a better history with emulators/virtulization then someone who just started using VMWare a few months ago and until then had only dealt with NES emulation) then I either back or debunk this standpoint?

EDIT: Heh. As you can tell from my member number and post count, I've been a lurker on here for QUITE some time.  Oh, and I just noticed a join date too... W00t! First post!!! jester.gif
               
               

               


                     Edited by True Vox, 23 March 2006 - 01:57 AM.
                     
                  


            '
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'derived'

  • Guest
NULL
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2006, 01:13:56 AM »

'
               
QUOTE(True Vox @ Mar 23 2006, 02:01 AM) View Post

I think this may have been said elsewhere in this thread, but I feel it needs to be highlighted better (It was said somewhat in passing):

There will be no more chance of a vunerablity in this then MS wants to put in.

That goes without saying, and yes, it has been said several times.

QUOTE

They just run it in a sandbox enviroment (VM360 anyone? biggrin.gif) and, as far as my meager skill can show, there's NO CHANCE of "Bad Stuff" happening.

Trying to emulate a 360 would be expensive and still crap for testing.

If it is C/C++, then this kit is probably an extension for Visual Studio, and compiles binaries to run on Windows. I think this is likely, given MSs history of giving away software to students for cheap or free so future gens depend on their products.

If it is C# or Flash, then this kit could be used to create real games that run (albeit in a virtual machine) on the Xbox.

QUOTE
Want to get out of the fance and play in the field with the big kids? Gotta pony up for a real SDK. But for many dev's this will be a dream come true. Heck, they could even implement a VPN *JUST FOR GAMES MADE* with this $100 SDK

Whaaa? Do you know what a VPN is?

QUOTE
, so there's NO CHANCE of tomfoolery, yet you can still take advantage of Xbox Live services (and just use MS's servers to make that ever needed first connection).

Who cares about Xbox Live? If we do get access to the Xbox (an I hope we do), it would likely be in a virtual machine and even if it gave access to the netowrk stack, it would not give you access to the infirmation needed to authenticate with live as a normal game.
               
               

               


                     Edited by derived, 23 March 2006 - 10:16 AM.
                     
                  


            '
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blah101

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2006, 08:20:49 PM »


What about a dvd that has kinda like the XDK on it for the xbox that will let us test our code on the x360 but wouldnt let us buffer overflow or try and fuck up the 360 at all and if a error happened it would either restart or just go back to title screen of the dvd(like a different or more expansive set of error codes to check for stuff like hacking).. that could possibly be it.  But who knows the articles while they give out info M$ always is very vague about what there going to do.  You can defintley expect to see a game by yours truly.  I just hope they let us get our hands on a LiVE stuff b/c most of the games ive been writing for the past 2 years are mainly for online/solo but hey games are much better when played with friends.




Edited by blah101, 24 March 2006 - 05:22 AM.


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Gobelet

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2006, 12:16:27 PM »


So, did they announce anything about it?




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gonkle

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Microsoft to offer cheap Xbox 360 game development kit?
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2006, 01:10:38 PM »


any news on this?
Has someone tried the XNA Tools, there was a digg some time ago where someone pointed to a downdload on the MS Site for their IDE with xbox360 support. Maybe MS is waiting what sony and nintendo will anounce.




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